S1: Hey , San Diego , it's time for KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. Since his inauguration Monday , President Trump has brought sweeping changes to the nation's immigration system. We see how they're being felt by people along the US-Mexico border.
S2: And you're seeing people break down in tears. People who spend their last time trying to get to the border.
S1: We hear from reporters covering the border and immigration about what they've been seeing and hearing from the San Diego Tijuana border region to the nation's capital. Then is artificial intelligence coming for our jobs ? We hear about how California labor groups are looking to push back. That's all ahead on KPBS roundtable. Hours after Donald Trump's inauguration Monday , he began signing executive orders to enact his immigration crackdown. They range from forcing asylum seekers to wait in Mexico to attempting to end birthright citizenship in the US. Refugee resettlement has also been paused. While we can bank on legal challenges to many of these policies , they've already rerouted people's lives. The mobile app used to facilitate entry to the US was shut down soon after Trump was sworn in. Tens of thousands of appointments into February were cancelled. On top of that , active duty military are being deployed to the US-Mexico border to assist with border security , including here in San Diego. Here to talk more about this week's events are two border reporters in the San Diego Tijuana region. Gustavo Solis , he's an investigative border reporter with KPBS. And Kate Morrissey is an independent immigration reporter who writes the Substack Beyond the Border News. Gustavo , thanks for being here. Hello.
S2: Hello. Hi.
S3: Hi. Thanks for having me.
S1: And to give us a more national viewpoint , we're also joined by Maria Cicchetti. She covers immigration for the Washington Post. Maria , thanks so much for being here.
S4: Thanks for having me.
S1: So first off , there's a lot of news that hit this week , obviously. I just wanted to get your initial impressions of what it's been like to cover immigration in a week like this. Gustavo.
S2: Oh , gosh. There's just been so much going on. Kind of by design , right ? I mean , you I think we all knew it was going to be busy the first week. Maybe we didn't anticipate how busy , but it just. Um , one executive order after another trying to analyze it , wait to see what actually comes out of it , what the human impact is , what the legal implications are. It's just been kind of a lot , I think , for everyone on the field. Um , but very interesting time historically to do it. So I'm glad we get a chance to cover this stuff.
S1: Well , Kate , I think all three of you have covered this during Trump's initial , you know , his first presidency , right ? So yeah , kind of reflect on this week. And how does it compare to his first term in 2017.
S3: When I think back to the first Trump administration. I just remember three years , particularly of , of like living in a firehose of information when it came to covering the immigration beat. I was we were always wanted for the front page. We were always , you know , just a really hectic time. And then when Covid hit , um , then we were sharing space with another very big news story. But up until Covid , it was like immigration was like the number one thing that everyone wanted to talk about and know about. And so we were we were busy pretty much that entire time. Um , and his first term , in his first week , he passed three executive orders. So now we've gone from related to immigration specifically. And so now we've gone from three in the first week to , you know , ten plus relating to immigration on the first day. Um , so it's definitely , I'd say like , uh , taken from where we ended last time and sort of ramping up from there rather than ramping back up to where we were last time.
S2: I think it shows a growth in the Trump administration. Right. First time in office. She's still learning how government works , learning what the function of different agencies are , what he can and can't get away with. And I think in this time in the second administration , like , like all presidents do , right ? They learn from the experience of the first grow , develop , restrategize and execute again. And that's kind of what we're seeing now.
S1:
S4: And uh , and I think , uh , what we're seeing , we are seeing some new elements. Uh , I think it was it was very interesting the clearer direction he has given to DoD , basically subjugating them in some ways to DHS and immigration enforcement. He also told Homeland Security Investigations , which is really it's a unit of Ice , but it's , um , it's internally very respected and well known for going after , you know , child exploitation and the kind of crimes the FBI would pursue. And , um , they told them to focus on immigration enforcement. And so , um , you know , last night and this morning , you see the white House press secretary talking about , um , launching the the largest massive deportation effort in US history. But if you count the actual arrests they made there , it's fewer than in the , like , 100 fewer than in the initial raids after Trump's first term , because Trump did this already. He did this in 2017. So yeah , he took office. It took him a little longer. He , um , he had these raids and it , you know , it caused a lot of a big stir across the country. And then weeks later , we found out that half either had no criminal records or had traffic offences , including drunk driving , which is serious , but so we saw all of that. Um , and so so that's what we're seeing today. You know , we're we're seeing an accelerated pace for sure. But he arrested fewer people in these initial raids than he did in 2017. Um , however , using military aircraft , that is a big deal. That's going to stir debate over whether resources should be used for that kind of thing , especially if we ultimately find out that these folks are not criminals.
S1: And , Gustavo , you know , earlier you kind of mentioned this idea of of keeping in mind the news versus the noise. Maria , there was kind of breaking down some of the information on the raids of maybe the perception versus the actual numbers. Right. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. I think Maria brought up an excellent point , which is numbers are lower , you know , compared 2 to 4 years ago. But on the other hand , like the numbers almost don't really matter because part of the strategy is to create this , this environment of fear and anxiety. I mean , the borders are Tom Homan has been pretty transparent about wanting folks who are in the country without status to to feel afraid. And that is working. I mean , here in San Diego , just in the aftermath of the air raids up in Bakersfield. People are on edge. You know , some kids aren't going to school , some parents aren't going to work. And there haven't been raids in San Diego. But that almost doesn't matter because the fear is exists. Um , so I think that's an interesting aspect to kind of cover just the yeah , the psychological impact it has independent of the real on the ground impact. Okay.
S3: Well , and even when you look at the executive orders , like there's a section that talks about trying to do everything they can to convince people to leave on their own. So not necessarily using government resources to deport everybody who's going to leave , but creating conditions such that people are like , you know what , I'm not going to stay here. I'm going to leave. Um , and that's something that you saw even in like the large scale deportation efforts in the 30s and the 50s because of the way those were carried out. Some people decided just to leave on their own as well. So it sort of hearkens back to that.
S2: Um , so sorry , but we were just talking about this the other day. That was part of Mitt Romney's , uh , strategy when he was running against Barack Obama. He said. Yeah , exactly. Mary. Right. But he had the line , right. We make it so hard here that people will just self-deport.
S4: It's so fascinating because , like , I investigated Romney for hiring undocumented immigrants. So while he was out kind of beating that drum on the campaign trail , he was having undocumented immigrants , you know , to his lawn.
S2: Oh , God. Well , Trump has a history of hiring them , too.
S4: Absolutely he does. And so that's going to be the big question , you know , here with that. And , and and honestly , even apart from the political , um , environment , you know , and the fear that you're saying is out there , which is true. Um , the , um , you know , people have been leaving anyway , as you know , California has been hemorrhaging people. Um , it's become a state that's unaffordable. And so undocumented immigrants have been leaving there steadily for years and years. And so , you know , it still has the biggest number. But I would you know , when you look at other states , they seem to be catching up.
S3: And so when we're talking about that fear locally , sort of to piggyback off of what Gustavo was saying earlier , you know , I'm seeing things on social media where people are like , ice is at this place , border patrol is at this place. And most of it , you know , doesn't even turn out to be real. But but the the the fear just has everybody on edge. Anytime they're seeing anything that might suggest , um , those forces are coming into their communities.
S1: And it sounds like I mean , as both of you have reported this week , I mean , that fear also goes down into Mexico. Right ? And the changes with the asylum system.
S2: And one of that , one of those changes was the cancellation. The termination of CBP one as a means of getting appointments to enter the United States.
S1: That was the app that was put in place to kind of manage the asylum system where people could stay , remain in Mexico , right. And apply for asylum , right ? Right. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. It was meant. It was it was pitched as a way to avoid the , you know , the the the chaotic images of a lot of people at the border and saying , look , you can use this app to apply. You can be in Mexico City and apply. And so you don't have to come all the way over here , make the dangerous journey. There were a lot of problems in terms of language and access and all kinds of things , but it was kind of what they had in place , the quote unquote legal way , especially after Joe Biden issued rules in June , making everyone who crosses illegally presumably ineligible for asylum. When Trump eliminated that , it meant that people who had already been waiting in Mexico for up to 8 or 9 months , um , away from their families living in in pretty awful conditions. Finally got their appointment. Right. They waited so long , they wanted to do the legal way. They had identified a sponsor in the US. They get their date , they show up , and then they get an email saying , sorry , it's been canceled. Um , nobody can talk to nobody. You can ask questions to just , you know , good luck to you , figure it out. And that's what I covered in Tijuana. Just seeing people break down in tears , people who spend their last time trying to get to the border , waiting to reconnect with. I spoke to a woman from Venezuela who had a seven year old daughter whose husband is in California. She had to tell her kid that she may never see her dad again because of that decision that came out of Washington , D.C. so we've been kind of focusing our coverage on the human impact on some of these policy decisions.
S1: And , Kate , you were also down in Tijuana this week reporting from there. I think you kind of painted the picture of a plaza down in Tijuana where a lot of migrants were gathering. And what was the reaction , I think. It seemed like a lot of confusion and just overall the kind of stress of what was happening , like Gustavo was mentioning , right ? Yeah.
S3: And I think what's maybe especially interesting about this plaza , which is called chaparral , it's right on the the south side of the port of entry is that it's been the place where we've seen this happen over and over again so many times as border policies have changed. Like , this is the place where , you know , for whatever , for various reasons , like asylum seekers are there saying , what is going to happen to me ? What does this mean ? How do I access requesting protection ? And there's not really answers. Um , and so , you know , it was striking just , you know , from a personal level to be back in that same space again , having these conversations again. Um , but yeah , there were dozens of of people there , families , small children , um , saying , you know , where do we go ? What do we do ? We don't have a we don't have a place to go. Now , we had our appointment. Um , and there were , uh , folks from a local shelter called Borderline Crisis Center who were passing out flyers and , um , trying to help get people connected with different shelters depending on their demographic. Um , and even some of the people who had had canceled appointments , who then ended up at borderline , were actually now back at chaparral , sort of doing that outreach work to their peers , which I think is like an under talked about part of all of this , the way that that folks who are in this sort of migrant community support each other and work together to try to navigate these moments.
S1: Maria , we're just hearing , you know , here in our region , along the border , how some of these impacts are being felt.
S4: My colleague Alison Hernandez was in , um , in Juarez talking to people. I'm getting text messages from people I've known for or heard from for years. People are scared. Um , people were scared under Obama and people were scared. Under Biden , less so under Biden in particular. Um , but I think I think , you know , even though the numbers are lower right now , I mean , cutting off CBP one was huge. And for the first time , we're going to see how Trump manages the border in a post-pandemic environment. So that was a big pressure. You know , valve for , you know , the Biden administration , you're seeing , you know , unlawful border crossings dropped significantly because people have another way to come into the country. Now that's going to raise questions about asylum eligibility , right. Um , and so it's very difficult to get asylum. And , uh , and that's going to be an issue. Um , but Trump has effectively shut down , you know , these policies effectively shut down on the border. Um , and , you know , he has a lot of latitude right now because he controls not only the white House , but also both houses in Congress. So there isn't that much that Democrats can do.
S1: I guess one question I had was he's shut down these programs , but it sort of remains unclear to me. You know , how long these programs will be shut down for or how change they will be.
S2: There's already been several lawsuits filed for some of these policies. Some were already like they were still being litigated from the first Trump administration , some of these programs. So I think that's an interesting question , right. Even the , um , a federal judge up in Seattle already blocked the birthright citizenship order. So I think a lot of this it will be litigated. I think there is a some harm it does initially. Right. Because you start the program and there's a window where it's in place until or if a judge orders it to stop. But that's kind of the chaotic nature of our immigration system where , you know , Congress hasn't stepped up and passed immigration reform. So we're left to a bunch of series of executive orders , internal policies and court decisions to make up our immigration system.
S1:
S3: So first , you know , when you look at the various sort of policies and programs that the executive orders call for at the border , it's not clear which one sort of supersedes the other , because they're not all exactly in line with each other. And so you have like so you have the end of CBP , one , which you know , is , as far as we can tell , is indefinite unless unless a judge rules otherwise. And what's interesting about that is there was actually a lawsuit under the Biden administration about his sort of asylum ban rule , which ties into CBP. One , because the Biden administration's response to that lawsuit was , well , we have CBP one , so people have access to requesting protection. We're not breaking the law. And so , you know , immediately , as soon as CBP one was shut down , lawyers in that case were like , hey , you don't have this anymore. Like , now asylum is completely shut down. You can't do that. So that's one case to keep a really close eye on. Um , but on top of that , in the executive orders , you know , it calls for the return of the Remain in Mexico program , which obligated people to wait in Mexico while their cases proceed in the United States. And then there's also language that suggests that agents can just send people back without even without putting them in any kind of program or allowing them any kind of access to , um , you know , the system for requesting protection or trying to be identified as a refugee. And so , you know , how does one get in the Remain in Mexico program instead of just getting sent back like , it's not it's not very clear how all of that's going to shake out yet. And I think that's where , you know , folks like Gustavo and I being on the ground here , that's what we're going to have to figure out just by by bye. Waiting south of the border and asking people what happened to them.
S1:
S2: Um , I think it was Tuesday or Wednesday , but they're just as confused as we are. Right. They're still reading through these , uh , these legal documents , trying to figure out how to interpret them , how how to push back , if appropriate. Um , they're having a lot of know your right workshops in Tijuana. But some of the answers like some of the questions they get , they don't have answers to. Um , I do think it is important to note though , if like if you are a Trump supporter or voted for Trump , some of the policies are having an intended consequence. Uh , I was at a shelter in Tijuana , and a lot of people just left. The ones that could went back home were decided to abandon their asylum claims , um , which was kind of the intended purpose of the policy. But from the legal side , like you said , I said , I think just like us , they're figuring it out. They're they're organizing , coordinating , collaborating and figuring out the next steps.
S1: Is that similar to what you've been hearing as well ? Maria.
S4: We're also closely tracking the the lawsuit. Kate mentioned that was a lawsuit filed under Biden. So you can see these asylum restrictions span , you know , multiple years , right. And so the CBP one and the parole programs were one way that migrants could get in and seek asylum or just work. But , um , and they're they're trying you know , the ACLU this week went to ask for a temporary restraining order so we could see some , you know , imminent action on this , um , in the small number of CBP one cases. But you'll , you know , we'll definitely be looking , you know , at those kinds of lawsuits.
S1: Up next , we continue our conversation on recent changes to immigration and the impacts they're having in communities. You're listening to KPBS roundtable. You're listening to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. Today on the show , we're talking about the week in border and immigration news. I'm speaking with Kate Morrissey from the Beyond the Border News , Substack , Gustavo Solis from KPBS , and The Washington Post's Maria Cicchetti. Among the programs that have been impacted this week is also the refugee Resettlement has been upended. I'm wondering , Kate , could you talk a little bit about that ? And also , could you explain the difference between what an asylum seeker is and someone seeking refugee status and that you know how that differs ? Sure.
S3: Let's start with the explanation and then I'll I'll talk about what's happened now. So essentially , when the way the US government uses those words , um , a refugee is someone who was forcibly displaced from their country. So they had to flee their country and they ended up somewhere other than the United States , where they sort of raised their hand and said , I need help , I need protection. And went through a screening process in , in that country to be identified as a refugee. Um , and then in certain cases and , you know , by no means in the , in the majority of cases , but in certain cases , uh , countries , including the United States will say , hey , now that you've been identified as a refugee , we'll resettle you in our country. And so , Um , folks will get flown here. They'll get a certain amount of support to get get settled and get on their feet. Um , and , and , you know , arrive already with the status of being on a path towards a green card. Um , for people who are seeking asylum , they're essentially doing that first step of of fleeing their country and then raising their hand and saying , I need help by arriving to the United States. So the asylum system is essentially our screening process to determine whether somebody is a refugee. They're meeting the same legal definitions that have been defined under international treaties and under US law. The difference is that they're going through the screening process here rather than abroad. And so what's happened now ? Um , as far as folks in the refugee resettlement program , um , Trump has ended that , uh , indefinitely. And , you know , we saw we saw a pause on the program under the first Trump administration. And we saw Well , after the pause , there was a dramatic decrease in the number of refugees that the United States resettled per year. Um , this wording of this pause feels a little different , right ? Like , we we have yet to see exactly what it's going to look like. But just like my gut sort of reading it is like , this feels like a longer term stop unless there's , you know , a lawsuit or something to bring it back that that doesn't like it. It sounds like it's going to stay stopped. And unless something forces it to restart as opposed to a pause , that then decreases the number.
S1: Anything to add there ? Gustavo.
S2: I think it's important to point out that especially with the. Well , both with asylum and refugee , but especially with their refugee program. It's a form of legal immigration , right. So there's a lot of folks who I hear from who who really support the the Republican stance on illegal immigration. Right. We need to secure the borders. It has to do with safety and sovereignty. But I support legal immigration. And for people who support legal immigration , I think it's important to know and note and understand that this cut to the refugee program is a cut to legal immigration of folks who , as Kate mentioned , are thoroughly vetted. I think it's over a year to to go through the whole process and are set up to , to contribute to society here in the US.
S1: Maria , you and your colleague Jeremy Roebuck , you recently published a story about how the Trump administration's directing federal prosecutors to looks like to go after state and local officials who may kind of get in the way of their their goal of mass deportations.
S4: You don't get a warrant signed by a judge to arrest somebody. And they've argued with local law enforcement for years over this issue. I mean , places such as Boston right to work eagerly , you know , helped Ice detain and deport people they thought were ms13 gang members , only to discover that they were , you know , high school students or college students , people who , you know , ran a stop sign. It didn't , you know , have any criminal histories. Immigration arrests are not public record. So there's no way for us to really watch dog these numbers. So , um , so that that's that's going to be a big issue. You know , if he goes after them , um , we'll see what the courts say , see if it stands.
S1: Finishing up here , I just kind of wanted to get your thoughts on , you know , what you're following in the weeks ahead. Obviously , this is a story that's going to , you know , not ending anytime soon. So what questions do you have going forward ? And Gustavo , I'll start with you.
S2: So many have a lot of questions now. I'll have more in the future I think. a couple of things I'm going to be looking out for. One is to see how much money Congress let's , you know , gives to the administration. I mean , if they are serious about mass deportations , it's going to be in the , you know , at least $100 billion is the number I've seen. So I'd be curious to see if Congress , especially a Republican Congress that cares about fiscal conservatism and reducing the debt ceiling , allows an increase that big. Um , closer to home , I am going to look at what Ice actions look like over here. We haven't seen any arrests like the ones up in in Bakersfield , here in San Diego. Yeah. So I'm curious to see if and when that happens. Just what that looks like. I know for context , Biden was already arresting. Um , ice arrest. We're averaging like between 150 and 200 a month during the tail end of his administration. So I'd be curious to see when the numbers come out , how they compare to what Biden was doing.
S1:
S4: So you probably will see a big increase in immigration arrests. You know , the Biden administration's policies spared most people in the interior from that. But the big question is going to be what will happen ? Well , there are many questions. I mean , that will just one deportation upends a family and a community forever. And , um , and so it will it will be a big question about how these this policy affects these communities and affects , um , the economy.
S5: Kate , you.
S1: Have the final word. Today.
S5: Today.
S3: Oh , man. I also have so many questions. And I think there's just going to be more questions than answers for a while. Um , you know , one thing that I'm definitely , uh , wanting to know is what is happening to the people who do cross the border now , who are who are hoping to request protection. What ? Where do they end up ? Um , are they detained ? Are they immediately sent back , or are they put in this Remain in Mexico program ? And then what happens to them from there ? There was this , um , comment from the president of Mexico a couple of days ago that suggested that they might deport people who are sent back in the Remain in Mexico program , that those folks might not be allowed to stay long term in Mexico this time , which was kind of strange. And so , um , you know , I want to know what that means and what that looks like. Um , also , you know , keeping an eye on , on , you know , troops coming to the border , what's that going to look like ? What are they going to be doing ? Um , we know that under US law , they're not allowed to do , you know , civilian law enforcement activity. You know , they're not allowed to put the handcuffs on somebody , basically , but they are allowed to do , um , you know , they're allowed to build things. They're allowed to provide logistical support. Be the eyes for officers to say , hey , the person's over there. Go get them. That kind of thing. Um , you know , and so keeping an eye on , like , what does that actually look like ? Um , as as soldiers start to arrive here. Um , that's just two things among many that that I'm sure will all be keeping an eye on in the next few weeks.
S1: The troops are already starting to arrive. I think the bulk of them are due among them. Among the 1500 are coming to San Diego as well as El Paso , and I think the bulk of them are arriving today. From what I saw in the Associated Press. We appreciate you all joining us today. Gustavo Solis is an investigative border reporter with KPBS. Kate Morrissey also joined us. She is an independent immigration reporter who writes the Substack , Beyond the Border News and Washington Post immigration reporter Maria Cicchetti has also been joining us. Thanks , everyone.
S2: Thank you.
S3: Thank you.
S4: Thanks for having me.
S1: When we come back. How California Labor is looking to combat threats from AI and concerns about the future of work. Roundtable's back after the break. You're listening to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. Whether you're buying groceries at a self-checkout line at the grocery store , or chatting with a bot to find out why your cell phone bill went up , Jobs once done by humans may not be today. That was what was on the minds of labor groups and some technologists at a first of a kind event last week in Sacramento. It was all about technology's impact on California's workers and how labor groups are aiming to push back. Carrie Johnson joins me now. He covers technology for Calmatters , and he's also a fellow at the Digital Technology for democracy lab at the University of Virginia. Hey , Carrie. Hey.
S5: Hey.
S1: So tell us about this event in Sacramento. It seemed , you know , to cover a lot of ground with where technology and work is today. Yeah.
S5: Yeah. So it was a convening of roughly 250 people , as you mentioned , to discuss how AI and automation can impact jobs. Um , you know , it was organized by worker advocate organizations and the UC Berkeley Labor Center , UCLA Labor Center. And from a couple of other UC schools , but also unions that represent Doc workers , home care workers , teachers , nurses , actors , state office workers , and other occupations. And , you know , you know , some of the key takeaways that people had were that it's essential to discuss AI in all future contract negotiations for collective bargaining agreements between unions and management , and that workers really should be part of the conversation about tech use in the workplace before it is deployed. It reminds me of a conversation I had with somebody about robots and how , you know , they can be embedded with racism , for example , who effectively was saying , if you're not on the table , you're on the menu , and that you really need to be part of the conversation about how tech is used to ensure it's not something that happens to you and that you can affect how it's used in the workplace.
S1: And we hear a lot , obviously about artificial intelligence today. And it seems to cover , you know , a lot of ground.
S5: Um , you know , that's a pretty simple form of sort of , uh , you know , a use of , uh , automation to , um , you know , that would do something that a human might have done in the past or does today. Um , but there's also use of , you know , AI to assess workers or , you know , otherwise make considerations about how they do their jobs or how to staff , you know , a workplace. You know , this is generally referred to as algorithmic management. And this is like I trained on data sets or sensors. And , you know , that type of information might be used to really try and quantify worker output and make predictions about their performance. Um , that can lead to hiring or firing decisions or other things of that nature.
S1:
S5: You know , there was an evaluation of American Community Survey data that found that it's , you know , people who might be cooks or in manufacturing or office clerks , food prep construction workers. A report put out by the UCLA Latino Policy and Politics Institute earlier this year found that really , Latinos are the only ethnic group overrepresented in jobs at high risk of loss to automation in California. And that same report found that roughly 11% of workers who are in jobs that are considered at high risk of loss due to automation. On an average , 11% are covered by a union today. But , you know , three out of four Americans , according to a Gallup poll taken last year , are worried about job loss. And a PricewaterhouseCoopers assessment found that 1 in 3 jobs are at risk of loss due to automation. In the course of the next decade. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And that that Gallup study was pretty remarkable. Like you said , you know , three quarters of people kind of being worried about this. But aside from , you know , the threat of losing one's job to technology , there's also this surveillance piece that you dig into in your reporting here. You spoke with one Amazon worker named Louise , for example , about how technology is being used to , I'd say , negatively impact his job , you know. Can you talk more about his story and how that plays a part into this discussion about technology and work ? Yeah.
S5: Well , you know , he he could feel the surveillance in his workplace. And , you know , that experience really led to pressure to meet quotas alongside pressure to meet quotas and an inability to , for example , help other workers physically. That led to back problems that gave him trouble sleeping. But it also , over time , led to a diminished sense of self-worth and feelings of depression. And , you know , he described feeling like a robot. And , you know , that really circles back to something that Annette Bernhardt , the director of the UC Berkeley Labor Center , has mentioned in the past when we've spoken , which is that she's less concerned about AI taking jobs than she has about algorithms used in the workplace to treat people like machines , like fleshy robots.
S1: You know , this conference had a lot of labor groups , a lot of labor leaders there. What was the sentiment and how do you see this playing out in some of the bigger unions going forward ? I mean , is it going to come up in contract negotiations ? How is it going to play out ? Yeah.
S5: You know , one of the sentiments that was shared. You know , I had the opportunity to be in conversation with the executive director and chief negotiator for Sag-Aftra at the end of the conference. And , you know , he talked a lot about the need for collective action and camaraderie and unity between different unions. The way he described it was that , you know , unions are up against the biggest corporate interests and political interests that you can imagine today. And working together in unity is absolutely where our power comes from. You know , so I think that that was a sentiment that was shared often to embrace that collective power that workers have. But there are some major contracts that are set to be negotiated this year. Roughly 150,000 United Food and Commercial Worker Union members who work at like Kroger or Albertsons and 100,000 National nurses Union workers are scheduled to to negotiate contracts this year. And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the ongoing video game strike for , you know , creatives whose unique body movements are used in video games or the Sag-Aftra union , is also scheduled to negotiate contracts associated with creatives who are in music videos this year. And so there's in each of these instances , I and automation will be part of conversations in those contract negotiations.
S1: And kind of as you just sort of illustrated there. I mean , it just covers so many different industries and types of work. You know , at this conference , was there any sort of unified concern that kind of brought all these different , you know , concerns together ? I mean , obviously surveillance and and staffing , you know , using algorithms to settle staffing is much different than , you know , maybe like a screenplay from generative AI , right ? It just seems like there's a wide range here.
S5: But , you know , I think something that was impressed upon me in being in the room for a lot of these conversations is , you know , it is quite common today to hear either people in government or people who are in management positions at businesses to talk about the great benefits of artificial intelligence and how the efficiencies or things that are generated by it will improve people's lives. Um , I think what was made clear in being in the room for these conversations is that artificial intelligence is also in a sort of juxtaposition to that. Um , galvanizing , uh , organizing amongst workers in workplaces. Um , and so , you know , that was a pretty clear part of , you know , what was what was on display there. But , you know , I think some of the unifying things that came up were , you know , the possibility that this technology can be used to exploit people to try and extract every bit of value out of them , to take their jobs. And I think it's really important to point out , to visit indignities upon them. You know , I think the central premise of all unions is to kind of organize and strategize to prevent each of those things. And so I think I certainly has the possibility to galvanize worker organizing.
S1: Any other larger questions you're left with after digging into this issue of technology and work ? Yeah.
S5: You know , I think something that came up in the conversations about how I can impact people at the conference was , you know , there's the possibility that automation can be used to make automatic discrimination or , you know , oppression. But , you know , as part of that , you know , I think that there's the possibility that somebody might be denied a job for some reason. I think there's also the idea of what's called economic segregation. Um , and this is the , you know , locking people into jobs based on maybe their race or class or something and , you know , not really having much space for opportunity. And to me , that's the sort of thing that kind of frays against , you know , the American dream. I think of the American dream being the possibility that you can grow from , you know , grow up poor and , and change your circumstance someday. And , you know , it was eye opening to me to have more conversations about the possibility of economic segregation being something that's automated as well. Because to me , that seems like there's the potential to really deny people the American dream. I think it's important to point out in these conversations as well , that the Privacy Protection Agency in California is drafting rules that would require disclosure of the use of AI in the workplace , so that people would know when this is happening. Because if you don't know what's happening in the workplace or when you apply for a job , then you can't really do much about it. Um , and the , um , California Civil Rights Department is also drafting rules to deal with protecting workers from AI that can automate discrimination. But , you know , the union leaders that I spoke with , like , uh , Lorena Gonzales from the California Labor Federation in particular , said that rules can take a really long time. And she wants to see laws passed to ensure , you know , protections for workers. Now. Yes.
S1: Yes. I mean , obviously , it still seems like I guess it's early days. I mean , we just heard about the Stargate AI initiative , I guess , coming out of Washington , D.C.. So , so much more happening. Uh , Carrie Johnson covers technology for Calmatters. He's also a digital fellow at the Digital Technology for democracy lab at the University of Virginia. Carrie , thanks a lot for breaking some of this down for us.
S5: Thanks for having me.
S1: That'll do it for our show this week. Thanks so much for listening. Reminder. You can listen to KPBS roundtable anytime as a podcast. Roundtable airs on KPBS FM at noon on Fridays again Sundays at 6 a.m.. You can email us at roundtable at PBS.org , or leave us a message at (619) 452-0228. Roundtables. Technical producers this week were Brandon Truffaut and Rebecca Chacon. The show was produced by Ashley Rush with help from Giuliana Domingo. Brooke Ruth is Roundtable's senior producer. I'm your host , Andrew Bracken. Thanks again for listening. Have a great weekend.
