S1: It's time for Midday Edition on KPBS. With change in the white House comes change in climate policy. We'll talk about the major overhaul and what it means for California. I'm Jade Hyndman with conversations that keep you informed , inspired and make you think. About how getting the Trump administration to prioritize environmental policy could make us more resilient to climate change.
S2: We've got to find a way to talk about climate in a language that all Americans care about.
S1: Plus , it is the youth who will be left to deal with the climate decisions made today. We'll talk with young climate activists on what they think of Trump's executive orders. That's ahead on Midday Edition. In just his short time back in office , President Trump has upended policy through dozens of executive orders. Among those have been several met to reshape climate policy. They signal a clear shift away from clean energy , electric vehicles and environmental protections. With a move toward increasing gas and oil production in the United States. David Victor joins me now to talk more about climate change in the new Trump era. He is a professor of innovation and public policy at the School of Global Policy and Strategy at UC San Diego. He's also the center for Global Transformation Endowed Chair in Innovation and Public Policy. David , you've got some some big titles under your belt. So welcome back to midday.
S2: It's nice to be back. Too many titles.
S1: I love it. That means you are the person to talk to about this. So first I want to know , you know , Trump signed an executive order leaving the Paris climate agreement. Can you remind us what that agreement does and what its future is without the United States in it.
S2: Well , so the agreement is a. Think of it as an umbrella under which every country in the planet needs to say what it's going to do about climate change. And then every few years they update their , their pledges. And so in principle , it's an extremely effective way to cooperate because it gives a lot of power to individual countries. It's designed in part to reflect US interests. And it was working really , really well. So so a lot of people are concerned that the Trump administration leaving Paris. This is the second time they did it. They did it during during Trump 1.0 and Trump 2.0. They're leaving Paris on on on day one. A lot of people are concerned that that's going to affect the legitimacy of the Paris Agreement , just at a time when it's starting to really work pretty well.
S1: And this is not the first time Trump has pulled the U.S. out of the agreement.
S2: On the one hand , it certainly affects American credibility. It also makes a lot of countries nervous. You know , there's some things that really need the Paris Agreement , like many developing countries , would like more funding to help them deal with the effects of climate change. A lot of that's organized under the Paris Agreement. That'll probably be harder to put together. So on that , in that sense , leaving Paris again is going to be bad news , but in the sense that that there's a technological revolution underway , innovations in renewables , new nuclear plants , um , new ways of producing energy , relying more on gas , less on coal. All of that together has lowered emissions in the United States and in many other countries. And that revolution , frankly , doesn't care that much. Who's in the white House ? Because a revolution is underway and I think will continue to accelerate almost regardless of who won the presidency.
S1:
S2: So countries are actually remarkably calm about this because they've seen it. I think actually this time around , it may be more dangerous because the Trump folks have studied much more. They know places where they can cause trouble. Most of that's actually not going to be around energy and climate policy. It's going to be immigration and other topics that have been very much in the news. But I think many countries are calmer about this than you might expect because the Europeans , for example , are going to double down and show that they're still in Japan. Korea will do that. Many firms are going to do this , at least up to a point. Many NGOs are already geared up. You know , it's like the we've seen the movie before , but this time it's happening at a much higher speed , and it's beginning on day one of the Trump presidency , as opposed to waiting several months for them to take this action.
S1: Well , last week you attended the World Economic Forum's annual meeting in Davos. What did you learn there about how the world is doing and combating climate change ? Well , we.
S2: Continue to make progress in the sense that 15 years ago , the world was on track for 5 or 6°C of warming above pre-industrial levels. Now we're on track for maybe two and a half or three degrees. That continues. And that's a that's due to a bunch of factors , many of them technological. So in that sense , nothing much has changed. But I saw two things in Davos that were really , I think , quite striking. One is European companies are really worried about their competitiveness , in part because of high energy prices. And so the Europeans are doing a lot on climate , but they're also trying to find ways to reduce the cost of energy. We're going to see some of those politics here in the United States , including here in California. So that tells me there's going to be a lot more attention to hard nosed , you know , economic costs and benefits. And the other is , of course , day one of Davos was coincided with the the inauguration of Trump. Trump gave a speech remotely and responded to a few questions from some hand-picked CEOs , including questions about energy. And in his responses , he emphasized oil and gas , certainly. He also emphasized coal , and he gave a like an odd diatribe about the benefits of coal and security of coal and clean American coal. What I see in the markets is not a lot of interest in coal , because it just can't compete with other sources of energy.
S1: Trump also declared a national energy emergency in his first week back in office.
S2: It may give them more procurement power. They're going to try and roll back some of the Biden era procurements of clean energy that were going on in the Defense Department and other places , and so that'll have an impact over time. It'll it'll send a signal that that demand for clean energy is not quite as reliable , at least at the federal level. The place that I think a lot of people are watching very closely is what does this mean for permitting the Nepa ? The National Environmental Policy Act requires pretty extensive reviews as a California equivalent of that. You saw in Trump's press conference when he visited the wildfire sites in California last week , uh , a lot of attention to permitting reform , in that case for rebuilding. But the same is true in energy. If we're going to build a clean energy system in the future , we're going to need infrastructure. That means we've got to build things. And one of the big obstacles to building things is , is permitting. Yeah.
S1: Yeah.
S2: They what we're watching right now is what happens in the process called budget reconciliation. So a change in the federal budget that might alter some of the incentives under the Inflation Reduction Act , that could make it a little more costly for California to adopt some forms of clean energy. But there's a lot of political support in California for continuing that. So I think I think California is going to be one of those states that that shows like the Europeans shows. You know , no matter what happens at the federal level , we're still in on on climate. The bigger question for California is what are the climate goals really costing ? How quickly can we get there ? Electric vehicles would be a great example of that. We have pretty aggressive program to phase out internal for for new sales of new vehicles by 2035. Some of that may you know , some of those targets may get adjusted. But I suspect that's almost that's true almost regardless of who won the last election.
S1: And as you talk about the electric vehicles , Trump is also taking aim at Biden's move toward those.
S2: The thing that we're watching is , is whether the budget reconciliation process will strip out some or all of the incentives for adopting electric vehicles , and also for the charging networks. This is an area where California policy is going to be really important , because if we want to adopt more electric vehicles , we also need a big charging system and that's infrastructure. And so if California can back and fill the loss of potential loss of federal incentives , that that will be a crucially important set of actions for the state.
S1: There have been federal incentives for people to purchase EVs.
S2: There'll be some change. I think most people expect some changes in in in guidance around that , and then maybe also changes in the law itself , which will make it easier for the Trump administration to remove those. The Trump administration is in a tricky spot here because a lot of the benefits from clean energy across the board have gone to red states , and not just blue states. Actually , more to red states. The EV's have systematically gone a little more to the to the blue states. And one of his biggest supporters. Uh , Elon Musk , uh , famously founded and leads a very important electric vehicle company. And so they're they're going to be in a lot of cross-currents. And the first week of any administration , you don't really see those cross-currents , but when they get to really changing law and changing the flow of economic benefits , those will come forward.
S1: Yeah , I was very I am very curious to see how that works out , given Elon Musk's business ventures and how they square with Donald Trump's policy plans there. You know , I think one concern surrounding EVs is the lack of charging infrastructure , as you mentioned. Uh , the Biden administration really invested a lot in that area and did make some progress.
S2: They need charging infrastructure. We're running some of the world's largest experiments on electric vehicle charging here in San Diego , at UC San Diego. And one of the things we've learned is that the size of the network matters a lot , but it's also the quality of the network that matters a lot. And I think that's that lesson we're now seeing all around the country , that it's not just about building more chargers , it's about making sure that they that they work , and also making sure that the time people allocate to their charging behavior , that that time is lined up with other productive uses of our time. So for example , having chargers , chargers at places where they shop or having them at work places so that they can charge the vehicle while they're working. Those are the kinds of things that still the business models for that are still emerging , and there are a lot of different business models , and that process is going to take some time. And that's one of the reasons why I think this electric vehicle revolution is a big deal and a real deal , but it's going to take longer to really run to completion than than a lot of folks expect.
S1: What are your thoughts on lithium mining , especially the mining that will be done at the in the Salton Sea.
S2: And yet mining is essential to our modern industrial economy. A lot of people have been concerned that with the rise of the clean energy revolution , that we're going to trade dependence on one product , like oil for dependence on a new product like lithium , which is used in batteries or cobalt graphite. A handful of other substances may be copper as well. I'm less concerned about that , because what I've seen in the last few years is that now that there's an incentive to look for more sources of these critical minerals , including lithium. People are finding them and they're finding ways to to produce them and meet local environmental standards. So so if that includes the Salton Sea , then fantastic. We just have to make sure that that's done in a way that is consistent with our values and consistent with our environmental rules , and then let the markets compete.
S1: Any concerns about battery storage ? As we do this.
S2: I'm not concerned about battery storage. Battery storage is playing a major role on the California grid already. It's not the only way of storing electricity. You need a diversity in pump storage and battery storage. A handful of other possibly hydrogen in the future. Put all that together. You need to be able to store more electricity. Because we have we become more dependent upon renewable sources of electricity like solar that are not always available. And so the way you solve that problem in part is with battery storage and with dispatchable power plants. So and we're already seeing this , the reliability of California's grid has gone up because we have more storage on the grid. So I think that's good news.
S1: You know , 2024 was the hottest year on record. And more concerning , many weather monitoring agencies raise the alarm that the increase in temperatures overall reached or exceeded a climate threshold of 1.5°C. I'm wondering if you can talk more about why climate experts consider that threshold is important.
S2: Well , what we know about the physical impacts of climate change is that they get worse as the climate warms , and they probably get worse at the exponent , so they get exponentially worse. So we know something about the likely shape of the what economists call the damage curve , the , the harm that's caused by climate change. But we don't know all the details. And so we don't really know if there's any individual threshold. It's not like the world ends at one and a half degrees or two degrees. But those numbers have been used as planning goals for a long time. The two degrees two degrees Celsius goal was adopted , you know , way back to 2008 , 2009. Some countries actually earlier than that. It's written into the Paris Agreement well below two degrees. Now , the Paris Agreement , a lot of people talking about one and a half degrees. So those are planning goals. But reality intrudes and the world is warming more rapidly. Some of the work that's been done here at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography has shown why the world is warming , is warming more rapidly than people originally expected , and we need to grapple with that reality. One implication of that reality is that although we need to continue and accelerate our efforts to control emissions , we really need to invest a lot more in understanding the physical impacts of climate change and making our societies more resilient , so that we don't have repeats of what we've seen in LA with the wildfires. So we don't have repeats of what we've seen with the inland flooding in the last hurricane season. These are all activities that are related in part to climate change , lots of other things going on , and society needs to become better aware of them and more resilient to those physical impacts.
S1: How do we do that ? You know , I mean , especially considering the wildfires that just that that are going on here in California , many people are going to be looking to rebuild their homes in the exact same places that they burn down. So how do we become more resilient to climate change ? Well , there.
S2: Isn't a silver bullet here. There's a lot of things you have to do. It starts with planning. So regional planning , Uh , housing planning. All incredibly important , because you need to understand something about the fire hazards and other hazards that it's not not just fire , but it's a lot of different hazards here in California. Uh , plan for those first responders is obviously very important. The role of markets is incredibly important. The insurance markets are vitally important. You know , one part of the of the of the wildfire story that's just devastating is that in part because of state regulation around insurance and some punishments for for insurers that operate in the state. You saw some insurers leaving the state and canceling coverage just at the time when people needed that coverage the most. So we've got to find a strategy that creates market incentives so that people don't just move into harm's way , that treats them fairly and morally when they're hurt , but doesn't create incentives for them to create additional dangers by just rebuilding the same thing in the same place before. And all of that is a long , complicated process , and it's amazing how much it affects all of our modern. It affects our modern society. For example , in this country , most infrastructure is built at the state and local level and is funded on debt markets. Those debt markets today , the municipal debt market , for example , don't really know a lot about the physical impacts of climate change. And the more they become aware of that , the more they can reward municipalities that are doing a good job of becoming resilient and and send a shot across the bow of those that are not , giving them a market incentive to do better.
S1: Well , you know , we've we've been talking a lot about Trump policies , understandably so. I mean , he is the president now.
S2: And that has a potential to really change the narrative around climate change , to emphasize to a greater degree that we're building the industries of the future. And in doing that , we're also creating opportunities for more jobs , more investment in the country. And so I think and I think a lot of that's going to stick because that's a bipartisan agenda that I think is the signature part of what the Biden administration did. The Biden administration also really doubled down on international cooperation. They working with the British government and other governments , uh , going back to to a meeting in Glasgow , Scotland. They helped to create a new framework for cooperation on climate change that emphasized creating technological revolutions in different industries. And , and in doing that , helping these industries generate political allies , whether it's the steel industry or aviation , electric power , electric vehicles. And so when you take a step back from what's happened over the last four years , they've played a big role in creating a new politics around climate. You know , climate is often seen as a as a partisan issue , uh , as a controversial issue. But in fact , what's happening politically is that we're seeing a wider array of supporters across the political spectrum. Mm.
S1: Mm.
S2: You know , if we think about climate just as climate , the political support is narrow and ephemeral. You know , in the last election , most people were worried about inflation. They were worried about immigration to some degree , a variety of other topics. Climate was nowhere near the top of the list. And so we've got to find a way to talk about climate in language that all Americans care about. It's about jobs. It's about health in the environment. It's about local air pollution benefits and not in addition to global benefits. And you put all that. It's about competitiveness. You put all that together. And that's politically a more durable approach. And to the extent that that's happened now , we'll see big parts of that agenda continue. Despite the avowed hostility of some parts of the Trump administration to action on climate.
S1:
S2: First and foremost , certainly the credibility of the country has been harmed by leaving the Paris Agreement again. And there's some areas of international cooperation on climate , like funding for development for the least developed countries , the ones that didn't really have anything to do with causing the climate change problem and are most and are highly vulnerable to climate change problem , uh , that's going to be harder to organize because of this. So that's one thing I'm worried about. The other thing I'm worried about is there's been a bipartisan consensus to be tough on our trading partners , China especially , but not just China. That's bad news. That's bad news for the clean energy revolution , because the clean energy revolution is going to is going to run its fastest pace. If these technologies are global and they can reach global markets. And that's why solar , for example , is so inexpensive today because it's been a global technology. And so the more we gum that up and create antagonisms with our trading partners , the more we create collateral harm in the form of less technological innovation , less problem solving , including around clean energy.
S1: I've been speaking with Professor David Victor. He is a professor of innovation and public policy at the School of Global Policy and Strategy at UC San Diego. Professor Victor , thank you so much for your insight as always.
S2: Jade , thank you so much. Great to be back.
S1: Coming up , how young people are responding to Trump's recent executive orders on U.S. climate policy.
S3: He is valuing the pocketbooks of billionaires more than he is American lives. And that's something that's really scary. And as young people , it's just clear that our our lives are not being valued by our government.
S1: Hear more when KPBS Midday Edition returns. You're listening to KPBS Midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman. We've been talking about climate policy and how it could shift under a second Trump term. We want to get some reactions from young people who are leading climate activism efforts across the country , including right here in San Diego. Joining me now is Emma Wible. She's a senior at La Jolla High and an activist with youth for climate , a program out of a local nonprofit. San Diego 350. Emma , thank you so much for coming back to the show. Yeah.
S3: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.
S1: Glad you're here. So , I mean , first off , I want to get your initial reaction to the inauguration last week and the flurry of executive orders signed by Donald Trump , especially related to climate.
S3: I think just this first week has made it clear what President Trump's priorities are going to be and what this administration is prioritizing. And I think that , like while LA Burns , he is doing the exact opposite of what we need to do in order to create a more stable future for our country. And just with all of the decisions that he made , it is clear that he is valuing the pocketbooks of billionaires more than he is American lives. And that's something that's really scary. And as young people , um , it's just clear that our our lives are not being valued by our government.
S1: Talk more about that.
S3: And it's just so frustrating because , um , we've grown up being told that , like , our actions and our government is supposed to represent us , but increasingly it seems like our government is acting against us. And it's it's been a very scary reality to deal with.
S1: You mentioned the wildfires that are continuing to devastate Los Angeles , and several fires have now burned through parts of San Diego. It's a moment where climate change related disasters are literally right in our face. Some climate activists in L.A. are even blaming the fossil fuel industry.
S3: Um , I mean , it seemed like just yesterday I was texting my friends in LA , making sure that they were safe , and then , um , the day after they were texting me , we had to stop in the middle of my class to check who might have needed to evacuate their homes. And that's that's so scary. And I think it it shows the fact that the climate crisis is not some looming threat , but that it's here and that it's now , and that it's only going to keep getting closer. And it's it's been terrifying and something that we've never seen at this scale before. And I think it's it's a premonition of the types of disasters we're going to have to deal with in the future. Right.
S1: Right. Because 2024 was the hottest year on record. And that affects everything from climate change related disasters to biodiversity loss to negative impacts on on human health.
S3: And I think that so much time can be spent , just like letting that immobilize us. But I , I think that the fact that we have so much to lose means that we have so much worth fighting for. And I really , really hope that that the fact that there's so much evidence and that they're increasingly disastrous effects of climate change are becoming increasingly clear that this will be a a call to action to people. So more than than spending my time like being scared for my future , which I definitely am , but I try to look at the , at the side of , of empowerment. And I really hope that people see these trends and instead of being scared , they use it as a call to take action.
S1: Yeah , well , back to some of Trump's climate policies. One of his executive orders last week withdrew the U.S. from the Paris Agreement. And that's a deal to cut greenhouse gas emissions to limit global warming.
S3: Um , because it again shows what these next four years might look like. But it also just shows the way that the United States is withdrawing from international efforts to fight the climate crisis , which is particularly worrying because the United States is one of the countries that is most at fault for our emissions and for the climate crisis. Um , and we're really abandoning the rest of the world and nations that are on the front line by pulling out of these agreements , but also abandoning all of the Americans , um , and , uh , people in this country that are going to continue to be suffering by deciding that we no longer want to be part of this worldwide effort to fight an issue that really is going to affect all of us. And so it's very , very angering and again , shows the fact that this administration is prioritizing profit over human lives.
S1: You know , you've pretty much grown up with Trump always on the political stage , nearly ten years at this point.
S3: And so it has certainly defined the political landscape of my lifetime , but it has also inspired me to try to make a difference in a increasingly hostile political environment.
S1: Speaking of making a difference , activism and social change starts local , and you all have been busy working to fight for a cleaner climate. What have you been focusing on ? Yeah.
S3: So , uh , youth the oil , which is the campaign that I lead at San Diego. 350 we are dedicated to phasing out extraction and reliance on fossil fuels in California and across the state. But this legislative session , we are really focusing on trying to get a polluters pay climate super fund passed in California. And this is something that was recently passed in both Vermont and New York , and something that I think is increasingly clear why we need it. With the devastating destruction of the LA fires. But basically , what we want to see is an EPA controlled fund that the worst polluters of the last couple of decades are forced by law to pay into. And then these funds can be tapped into by the state government to deal with climate disasters , rebuilding , mitigating the effects of climate change , and really shifting the burden of of dealing with these disasters from the backs of Californian taxpayers and our government onto those that are actually responsible. And so that is going to be something that we're really pushing on joining a statewide effort. And again , that I think is increasingly clear why we need this. Because this devastation should not be falling on the shoulders of California's citizens , and should instead be put on the people that knowingly continued burning fossil fuels for decades. Yeah.
S1: Yeah.
S3: It is. The Polluters Pay Climate Super Fund was introduced last year and ended up being tabled. But it is going to be introduced soon. And we're really hoping that with the backdrop of these disasters , we're going to be getting a lot of support. And we have been seeing growing support , especially after the super fund has passed in two other states. So we're really hopeful that we will be able to get the momentum to pass this in California as well this year. But we are still pretty early on in the campaign , so there's still definitely a lot of work to do.
S1: You know , there's so much going on in California. What are the main environmental issues facing people here in San Diego ? From where you sit , I think.
S3: Here in San Diego. We are no strangers to all of the issues that are affecting our state and our country. I mean , we definitely are on the front line of wildfires and extreme heat , which , you know , touch in with the air pollution , erosion and drought and all these things have been a reality for Southern Californians , but increasingly destructive reality. And then I think that we also saw the infrastructure effects of the rain and flood last year. And I think just like all other parts of the nation , our infrastructure is simply not equipped for the level of climate disaster and intensity that we are going to be seeing. Uh , and so the climate crisis is going to affect us , as it will the rest of the nation , and it will be really Important to make sure that we are protecting our frontline communities here in San Diego from the worst effects , and making sure that we are making the necessary changes to keep all of San Diego safe.
S1:
S3: Um , and I think that the fact that climate change has seemed so intangible , and the fact that our status quo was so entrenched in the use of fossil fuels and unsustainable practices has made people complacent , especially older generations that have lived in this reality for much longer. And it is frustrating a lot of the times as youth climate activists , to feel like we're the only ones screaming into this void and the people that are in power don't listen. So since we are going to have to live with this for the rest of our lives , and we simply are not the ones with the power to make the decisions that will decide our future. It is so important that adults listen to us and that our politicians prioritize climate.
S1: Now you know , Emma , the last time we had you on the show , we discussed eco anxiety or climate anxiety.
S3: But I think more than ever , it is so important for us to all come together as a community. And so while I think so many young people are scared , and this is definitely going to take an a toll on our mental health and our ability to live our lives. Because , I mean , it's not normal to be at school and be getting alerts of wildfires popping up , uh , wondering if it is your home that is on fire or something like that. So I'd say that the convergence of so many scary realities from our politicians , uh , clearly not listening to us and not caring about our future as well as so many destructive disasters on the front page. It is really difficult right now to not feel really scared. And it is just a a reality that no other generation has had to deal with. But I think that , more than anything , is so important for us to come together as a community and rely on each other and derive hope from the fight itself , and from knowing that this is the right thing and that a better future is possible , rather than being so connected and having our mental health be so connected with the decisions of leaders that simply don't care about our lives. And so it's definitely difficult to separate ourselves and our success and our our measure of our success from the decisions of people far away. But I think that it's necessary sometimes , and something that's going to be very big for the next four years.
S1: I've been speaking with Emma Bible , La Jolla High School senior and climate activist with San Diego 350 and youth for climate. Emma , as always , thank you so much.
S3: Thank you so much for having me.
S1: That's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
