Tucker Carlson is out at Fox — but extremism in media persists right here in San Diego

S1: At this moment in time , there is no bigger threat to democracy than white supremacy. And for years , there was no bigger name than San Diego's own Tucker Carlson , who platformed white supremacist ideology on Fox News every night. Now that Carlson and Fox have parted ways , what does that mean for our democracy ? And why does San Diego seem to have such cozy relationships with extremist ideas ? Here to talk about that is Will Karlis , national correspondent who covers extremism and emerging issues nationwide for USA Today. Well , welcome back , as always , and glad to have you.

S2: Always nice to talk to you , Jay. Thanks.

S1:

S2: It is. It's especially huge in the world that I cover. As you mentioned in your intro , the world of of extremism and far right extremism , particularly. I mean , there's been no greater spokesperson , no greater amplifier of sort of nasty white supremacist and other far right rhetoric than Tucker Carlson. So at least in the world that I live in this , this says something. It says something about what's happening to this movement. It says something about the way that the country is moving. And it's going to have significant impacts moving forward.

S1:

S2: And he seems to just have a team of producers who essentially will go through the Internet looking for stuff , looking for little nuggets of information that they think will resonate with their audiences. And quite often those nasty nuggets of information can be found on places like Fortun and , you know , some of the darker spaces on Reddit and some of these other sort of murky , nasty corners of the Internet. And so there's there's a lot of research that's been done that shows a kind of pipeline from these really niche kind of message boards where you have these white supremacists and other other really , really nasty actors chatting to each other and kind of coming up with theories and coming up with ideas. And then those get kind of amplified and softened up a little bit. I think it's fair to say that the ideas get sort of made a bit cleaner and a bit a bit more palatable for a broader audience. But they're still at the core the same thing. And Tucker is one of has been really the main conduit for that , the main the main pipeline from kind of the really extreme far right to mainstream America.

S1: And while Carlson and Fox News have given platform to these dark corners of the Internet , can you talk about the ways those dark corners are weaponized and used as a tool of manipulation ? I mean , you know , these ideas obviously don't just stay on the dark corners of the Internet. They seep into larger social media platforms and television , as we've talked about. So how are those how is that used ? Yeah. Absolutely.

S2: Absolutely. And the way I describe Tucker Carlson is almost like as a sort of a catalyst or a balm or kind of like choose your metaphor. It's like it's like you you have this sort of parallel movement of these lies and these conspiracy theories from from , you know , these extremist parts of the Internet to the mainstream Internet. And you're absolutely right. It also happens on social media. But the fact that it's also parroted by not just Tucker Carlson , but these sort of huckster pundits on the right means that it's all it means that when , you know your your uncle or your auntie read something on Facebook that isn't true , they can kind of point over at Tucker Carlson and say , well , look , he's saying something very , very similar. So it must be true because it's on the biggest platform for news in this country. It's on the biggest talk show in this country. So. So it must be true. So it's not just that that he himself has has parroted and amplified these views. It's that he gives legitimacy to these other these other kind of trickling through of these of these nasty ideas. And that that I think is actually probably the most dangerous thing about about Tucker Carlson and some of the other some of these other actors on the far right in conservative media. Yeah.

S1: And we know obviously there's a large audience that consumes this information on Fox , but more importantly , some of our elected officials take this in and subscribe to the same ideology.

S2: It gets them votes , it gets them. It gets people into the into the voting booths to vote for them. I mean , look , the last Republican president , President Donald Trump , started his career with a lie , which was that Barack Obama was not born in the United States and didn't and , you know , was it wasn't a US citizen. It was a racist trope that started on , I believe , on fortune. It started in one of these murky corners of the Internet. So these lies work. They resonate with a certain population of the United States. And I think I think it's fair to say that the last over the last kind of six years or seven years , that population has shrunk and those ideas have started to resonate less. But certainly it's been the main way that that the Republican Party has been able to resonate. With its base is by coming up with these conspiracy or taking these conspiracy theories and and using them. You know , and I don't want to sound sound hyperbolic , but this is this is nothing new. I mean , this is what fascist dictators have done for , you know , at least the last 100 years across the globe. So it's a it's a well-worn playbook that that that the GOP has learned to use to its advantage.

S1:

S2: I mean , I think I think ultimately it comes down to I think it comes down to education on the one hand , and I think it comes down to a lack of faith in not just the news media , but a lack of faith in facts and a lack of faith in you know , it's very , very difficult , especially for people of a certain age group , I have to say , to ascertain what's true and what's not in today's America , because there's so much disinformation floating around. And not only that , that you have people who I believe firmly are engaged in in good faith news gathering and good faith news dissemination , you know , shows like your own. And I'd like to say , like the work we do at USA Today that have undergone this massive discredit by not just Donald Trump , but by a lot of a lot of actors on the far right who seek to muddy the waters and seek to tell people , look that the news media , the people who are actually telling the truth , are lying to you. You know , So , I mean , every morning after I publish a story , I wake up to ten emails from people telling me that , you know , I'm the lying news media and that only only Tucker Carlson tells the truth and only Donald Trump tells the truth and we're lying. So , you know , it's it's extremely difficult for people to really , truly ascertain what's true and what's not. And and that's a it's a sorry state of affairs , but that's where we are right now. And hopefully it's it's getting a little bit better. I think the next two years are going to prove pretty , pretty crucial in figuring that out.

S1: You know , the first thing you mentioned was education.

S2: It simply is. I mean , that might sound hyperbolic , but this is what , you know , dictators and fascist regimes have done again , for the last 100 years is what they do is they they limit they limit the education of the children so that only so that people are confused and that they're and so that their ideas can resonate. I mean , it's an idea as as old as as sort of politics itself , you know , I mean , you can go back to the Roman times and see how , you know , the Romans edited Christianity and only allowed one version of Christianity to flourish. You know , I mean , this is this is what regimes do they they they take away the options. They take away the the education. And they confuse people so that they hopefully , you know , believe the people who are lying to them. You know , So thankfully , we we we don't have I don't think that those bands are going to work because we have the Internet. We have freedom of speech in this country. And I think that , you know , that those those bands are sort of very clearly being shown up for for what they are. And I think that any any children and any adults , any parents who truly want their kids to be educated , there's a lot of ways to educate them without having to revert to the school library , you know. So I think it's very , very dark and very wrong , but I don't think it's ultimately going to work.

S1: Um , you know , San Diego's One America News is one of the outlets courting. Carlson.

S2: I mean , most people who who are commenting on this think that Tucker can go. They think two things. They think a fox is going to promote somebody who's just as bad and just as much of a , you know , a huckster as Tucker. And they think that Tucker can kind of go anywhere and have the impact that he's had. I don't think that's true. I think that there's a sort of a special sauce , a special combination when you combine , you know , not just Tucker , who , you know , by the way , is a very smart and very sort of convincing man with the the sort of the most watched news network that that's a magical combination. That's been a magical combination for , you know , for the far right for for for a long time. And I think I think if you uncouple those two things , then they sort of both lose their resonance. But but it's really too early to tell. I mean , look , you could go to Newsmax or Oann and absolutely flourish and take away a lot of people from from Fox. And we could be having this conversation in 2 or 5 years and. And actually be talking about Oann as the main network. So I think it's such a fascinating time in American sort of , I guess , propaganda right now. It's like what what is going to happen ? We've had this kind of propaganda juggernaut that has been followed absolutely blindly by massive amounts of Americans. And now we'll see whether they follow that juggernaut elsewhere or whether they whether Fox News turns to a more moderate to just sort of actually telling the truth instead of lying , which is what they've been doing , or whether they double down and they bring somebody who's who's even more disruptive and sort of overtly fascist to to to to take his place. So I don't know. It's going to be a fascinating year or so as this all plays out.

S1: You know , and as we've discussed , conspiracy theories and white supremacist ideology have been mainstreamed by people like Tucker Carlson , but also Peter Navarro and one American News , all of which have ties to San Diego.

S2: I mean , having having spent a lot of time in San Diego , you know , there's there's a rich history of white supremacy in San Diego , if you want to call it that. I mean , you know , the famously the the guy who lived in Fallbrook , I'm blanking on his name now , but was the head of I think it was the Aryan Nations. You know , there's there's a there's a strong history of white supremacy there. I think also , you know , San Diego is still I think , as anybody who knows , that anybody who lives there knows is a lot more segregated than than than some cities , particularly on the West Coast. It's sort of got all the advantages of the sort of , you know , media savvy , nice place to live , sort of , you know , all the benefits of living in California with some of the kind of old school , you know , segregation that you see in other parts of the country that perhaps don't have that media infrastructure. So , you know , maybe that's part of it. But but , you know , I mean , these these these people are also everywhere , right ? I mean , there are there are sort of quasi white.

S3: Supremacists kind of , you know , in places like Idaho , in in in the.

S2: South , obviously also on the on the East Coast. So , I mean , like these these little bubbles of kind of.

S3: You know , quasi white supremacy are.

S2: Growing up all over the place. San Diego is a pretty prominent one of them , but it's certainly not not alone.

S1:

S2: But , you know , it's very strange.

S3: I mean.

S2: The border.

S3: Issue in this country really.

S2: Sort of tends to get talked about through the lens of Texas , at least for the last couple of years , much more so than California. I'm not quite sure why that is. I mean , you know , the border is is pretty pretty massive here and , you know , pretty huge issue as far as the role the military plays. Look , I mean , the military is by and large , a very , very conservative. Organization.

S3: Organization. Still.

S2: Still. And a lot of people I mean , everybody who lives in San Diego knows that are a lot of people who end up living in San Diego , you know , got there through the military. Either they served in the Navy.

S3: Or the Marines or something else and.

S2: Got San Diego and decided to stay. So that that does obviously make us skew somewhat conservative. But but my understanding of the local politics in San Diego just watching from afar is that it's actually swung much more to the left in terms of the city.

S3: Council and even.

S2: The county. So I don't think you can sort of still call San Diego a bastion of.

S3: Conservatism like Orange County , for example. You know , I think it's it's yeah , it's a weird one.

S2: I'm not I'm not quite sure why these these characters , you know , seem to seem to thrive there.

S1: Welcome back. I'm talking with Will Karlis , national correspondent who covers extremism and emerging issues nationwide for USA Today. We are talking about extremism and its ties to San Diego.

S2: I mean , that's still sort of the.

S3: Number one threat as far as the.

S2: FBI is concerned. It's the number one.

S3: Threat as far as as far.

S2: As all the sort of national security apparatus.

S3: Are concerned.

S2: The people that I watch to sort of see where the next mass shooter is going to come from are , you know , primarily racist and white supremacist groups. So that's always a lingering threat of violence. I do think that the sort of federal security apparatus , the FBI.

S3: Other organizations have.

S2: Got a lot better at recognizing that that is the threat and got a lot better at sort of stepping in and trying to stop that threat. We've seen a lot of shootings thwarted over the last kind of a couple of years , which is good , which is a huge result of the Biden administration taking over and taking over from Donald Trump's position , which was essentially there is no right wing extremism.

S3: In this country.

S2: And Biden immediately stepped in and said , yes , there is. And it's our number one priority in terms of security.

S3: But it's still.

S2: It's still very much a threat. And I mean , of course , we're just talking about the the sort of the tip of the iceberg in terms of the most prominent forms of violence. Of course , you know , people of color , the LGBTQ community , particularly.

S3: Around this country , can.

S2: Tell you that they face this sort of violence on a on a regular basis and not just physical violence , but verbal violence. You know , so unfortunately , it's still you.

S3: Know , I wrote a story a.

S2: Few months ago that talked about the the different groups that we heard a lot about. And they've kind of melted away groups like the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers that used to be sort of emblematic of this movement. And the.

S3: Point of my story was , you know , the.

S2: Groups may go away , the groups.

S3: May or.

S2: May dissipate or splinter. But the underlying ideologies that drive these groups , unfortunately , are always there. And they and they kind of pop up and regrow and metastasize and , you know , unfortunately are just a part of American society and see no sign of of going away.

S3: So I'm afraid the violence.

S2: Is going to be here to stay.

S3: And , you.

S2: Know , particularly with an election cycle , particularly with Donald Trump. Running.

S3: Running.

S2: We're probably going to see more of it.

S1: And you know that violence extends beyond terrorist attacks , you know , but to people from marginalized groups and targeted groups who are doing everyday things like the black student , for example , who was shot while ringing the doorbell of a white homeowner in Kansas. Right.

S3: Right. Right.

S2: And , you know , particularly I mentioned the LGBTQ community. I mean , look , the the overwhelming focus of the extremist.

S3: Far right right now is on the trans. Population.

S2: Population.

S3: You know , it's on drag.

S2: Shows , which they've conflated with , you know.

S3: With the trans. Population.

S2: Population. And so the I'd say the most dangerous place to be at the moment in America.

S3: If you were , you know , wanted to.

S2: Go to a dangerous.

S3: Place , would be.

S2: An all ages drag.

S3: Show , you know , that's open to children in somewhere like Ohio or somewhere in the Midwest.

S2: Where you have large sort of organized movements of proud.

S3: Boys and other other extremists.

S2: I'm amazed that nobody's been shot at any of those yet. You have there was a show in Ohio a couple of months ago that that.

S3: You know , a number of armed neo-Nazis.

S2: Showed up and sort of shouted , you know , shouted Nazi slogans at the event. And , you know , it's just.

S3: It's it's it's incredible to me that these.

S2: Haven't descended into really sort of bloody violence yet. And I'm worried that they're going to. So , you know , yeah , the LGBTQ community , particularly the trans.

S3: Community , you know , the drag community is really.

S2: Facing the wrath of this.

S3: Group right now.

S1: Also unnerving is the fact that , you know , from January 6th to Buffalo and Uvalde , extremists have had the Internet at their disposal really to organize and spread their ideas before attacks even happened. Why have local , state and federal officials not really been able to prevent some of these attacks ? I mean , it's like , you know , we can think of how the Muslim community was surveilled after nine over 11. Um , that doesn't seem we're not getting the.

S3:

S2: And I'm going to be a little bit controversial here. You know , I do.

S3: Think that , you know.

S2: There were there was massive overreach.

S3: And massive , um , you know , just just.

S2: Things went.

S3: Very wrong in the wake of.

S2: The nine over 11 attacks in terms of the overstepping of the federal government , in terms of the , you know , the. The.

S3: The.

S2: They infiltrated mosques and things like that. But but also the you know , when the FBI made.

S3: You know , Islamic extremism its number.

S2: One sort of priority , you did see lots and lots and lots of potential attacks get thwarted. You did see them get stopped , you know , and now you may not have heard about them because they didn't happen. But as somebody who , you know , has read , you know , who watches the press releases and sees , you know , what are the attacks that are being stopped and what are the movements that are being stopped ? You know , there was a massive.

S3: Sort of.

S2: Running up of of the security apparatus to tackle what was a real problem , you know , was overstated. But it was a real problem. And they were.

S3: Able to.

S2: You know , thwart a lot of attacks. They also , you know , arguably created a lot of stings that were , you know , very , very dodgy. But my point is , like when when we decide that something.

S3: Is a problem in this country.

S2: Our law enforcement is fairly good at tackling it. You know , it doesn't stop everything , but it does stop a lot of it. And and I think that what we've.

S3: Seen in the past.

S2: With white supremacy.

S3: With these with these racist.

S2: Attacks was just a lack of focus and a lack of emphasis in terms of.

S3: In terms of taking it seriously. And what we've seen , you know.

S2: Frankly , since Joe Biden took office is.

S3: Is a complete 180 in terms of how much attention is being paid to that threat. And I think you've seen a subsequent , um , as I mentioned earlier , like a subsequent.

S2: Thwarting of those attacks. You know , they don't make the headlines , but I mean , there are attacks every week.

S3: That are that are stopped.

S2: By the FBI , that has stopped by interventions by by.

S3: Not just.

S2: Federal but also local and state law enforcement. So , you know , my hope is that as we've made that a priority , that we do see these attacks sort of lessen. Um , but , you know , you can't stop everyone. There's there's 350 million people or.

S3: Something in this country. And , you know , a lot of.

S2: Them , unfortunately , have access to to weapons. And a lot of them have , you know , have these deep seated , you know , racist beliefs and and are willing to go out and cause atrocities in the name of that. So , you know , you're never going to catch.

S3: Every single one of them.

S2: But but I think that I.

S3: Think that you can.

S2: Sort of make make the net finer and the mesh finer and catch more and more of them. And I think we've seen some of that happening in the last few years.

S1:

S3:

S2: You are you're really testing me with the big questions today.

S3: I think I think.

S2: That the fix is , you know.

S3: It's a number of.

S2: Different things. I mean , one of the other things.

S3: That we've seen in.

S2: In particularly in the last sort of 2 or 3 years has been a.

S3: Real step up in terms of organizations.

S2: Universities , thinktanks , sort of trying to figure out how to solve.

S3: This problem and.

S2: Trying to reach people. And ultimately what.

S3: It comes down to when it comes.

S2: To sort of violent.

S3: Domestic extremism , it's you have to reach.

S2: People before they go too far down the rabbit hole. You have to reach them before they , you know , become entirely delusional and , you know , decide that they're going to.

S3: Take things into their own hands and go out and.

S2: Commit violence. And the way that you do that is through , you know , intervention methods.

S3: And I wrote a story it was a couple of.

S2: Years ago now , but.

S3: I wrote a story about a group , for example.

S2: Called Moonshot. And what Moonshot does is actually pays for advertising on Google and on other , you know , search engines.

S3: So that when someone types in a racist trope , for example , the great.

S2: Replacement or , you know , Jews control the banking system or some other racist nonsense , um , moonshots actually uses the Google algorithm to point them towards videos.

S3: And other content that.

S2: Disproves that and that shows what , what utter garbage that is. And so it's , it's little things like that that , that that.

S3: Magnified and spread out combined with , you know better education to help.

S2: People stop disinformation. It's those things that I think are ultimately going to going to stop the real.

S3: Violent extremists from.

S2: Going too far down the rabbit hole and going out and committing violence. You're never going to get all of them.

S3: But but again , you.

S2: Can you know , the more people you reach , the more likely you are to to stop these attacks and to , you know , to to weaken this movement. You know , movement when a movement is based on on lies and conspiracies , you just need adequate. Information and education to show , you know , how ridiculous and stupid and hurtful those those those conspiracies are. And , you know , the vast majority of sort.

S3: Of reasonable.

S2: Minded people will will take that information and we'll use it to undermine , you know , whatever rabbit hole they've gone down. So I think I think it all.

S3: Comes down to education.

S2: Learning , working in conjunction with the government , third parties , you know , businesses , everybody needs to kind of chip in and say , hey , this is a real problem and we need to we need to fix it.

S1:

S4: It's very easy to be told.

S2: That the reason that you haven't succeeded in life is because , you know , because the world is tilted against you , because you know , because you're white , you know , frankly , or because you know , because there's a shadowy Jewish cabal that controls everything that's controlling. Why , you know , you haven't made a success out of your life , you know. So I think that they're easy and comforting for a lot of people , you know , And that's that's what it.

S3: Comes down to. It comes down to.

S2: To scapegoating and to saying , you know , it's not your fault that you you know , that you you haven't done very well. And so that's a very seductive message. It's what it's what Tucker Carlson , you know , absolutely thrives on.

S3: You know , he tells his.

S2: Audience every day , you know , they're lying.

S3: To you.

S2: They're trying to control you. They they want you to.

S3: You know , they.

S2: Want you to be to be blinded.

S3: They want you to be.

S2: Downtrodden , etcetera , etcetera. He's he's scapegoating sort of these. These.

S3: These.

S2: Unseen , powerful forces and making his audience think , oh , it's not my fault. And that's , you know , extremely seductive. So I think that that's ultimately why these these tropes kind of pop up all the time. Um.

S3: Um.

S2: You know , as well as just , you know , unfortunately , hatred is a , is is still a powerful tool , not just in politics , but in , you know , in religion to a certain extent. And , you know , in some.

S3: Of the main , um.

S2:

S3:

S2: Don't see that.

S3: Changing anytime soon.

S2: Um , you know , despite all the work that's being done to try and undermine it , it's still , it's a very , very thorny issue that just never goes away.

S1: I've been speaking with Will Karlis , national correspondent who covers extremism and emerging issues nationwide for USA Today. Will , as always , thank you very much for joining us.

S2: It's always a pleasure. Thank you very much , Jade.