S1: It's time for Midday Edition on KPBS. Here's a question what do your dreams mean ? Well , today we're going to unpack that with researchers and psychologists. Here's to conversations that keep you informed , inspired , and make you think. Dream expert Reuben Nyman tells us why dreams are so important. We need a new.
S2: Respect , a new regard. We need a new relationship with the dream world.
S1: Then the conversation continues with what our dreams tell us about ourselves and the community around us. That's ahead on Midday Edition. Here's a question for you. How'd you sleep last night ? Did you dream ? If you did , what were you doing ? Seeing. Feeling. Was it good ? Was it bad ? Ugly ? Who were you in that dream ? What was the dream trying to tell you ? Now , folks , don't fall asleep on me here. But this next hour we're taking you through a journey. A journey through the science and psychology of sleep and dreams. My first guest today is quite the expert , Reuben Nyman. He is a psychologist and clinical assistant professor of medicine at the University of Arizona. He studies how dreams and sleep health are connected. Reuben , welcome to midday edition.
S2: Thank you very much , Jade.
S1: Well , first question for you. Sleeping and often dreaming. It's something we all do every night.
S2: There's the American Academy of Sleep medicine , for example , and there's the International Association for the Study of Dreams. There's some overlap , but in practice , the two need to be reintegrated. You know , in short , we really can't sleep well unless we dream well and we can't dream well unless we we sleep well. Both are essential.
S1: Well , we often wake up and completely disregard our dreams.
S2: Um , a lot of that is the result of it becoming over medicalized. Uh , much of the study of dreaming is a study of REM sleep , and REM is a kind of sleep , of course , rapid eye movement sleep , during which we're most likely to experience very vivid dreams. But it turns out that in that research , there's less and less respect , less and less regard for the experience of dreaming for for what you and I and other people feel in the dream. You know , here's the bottom line when we dream , we typically believe we're awake. And the only other time we believe we're awake is well is when we're awake. So dreaming , if we're willing to address this , dreaming raises some incredibly important questions about consciousness and about life. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. Well , and I want to talk more about that. I mean , what what can dreams tell us about ourselves ? Mm.
S2: Well , I think dreams can tell us both about ourselves. And I would say also they tell us something about life and about the world. There are different levels of dreaming and there are different kinds of dreams. Um , and some of the dreams are they're kind of like funhouse mirrors , you know , but it's a reflection of who we are in our waking life. But the mirror is somewhat distorted , and with interpretation and analysis , we can kind of get at what it's saying. And so the dreaming can be reflecting deeper parts of who we are , conflict that's going on inside that we're not yet aware of. It can reflect issues going on in our body. It can tell us a lot about our health , but the dream also tells us about our connection socially. One interesting finding about dreaming , at least in our world , is most of us are significantly more social in our dream lives than we are in our waking lives. So dreaming reflects a lot about who we are , not only in ourselves , but who we are in the world , our connection with the rest of the world. From a Jungian psychological standpoint , we think of this in terms of our not our not just our personal unconscious , but our collective unconscious.
S1: Well , given that , I think it sounds like it's important to be able to interpret your dreams.
S2: Probably. Um , there's many different approaches to interpretation , as there are psychologists in the world , you know , I think interpretation is an interesting question. There's a presumption when we go to interpret a dream , that it's kind of keeping a coded secret from us. There's something we need to unearth. And this is an old Freudian notion that the dream isn't meaningful until we decode it. And I'm not arguing against the analysis. I think sometimes that can be really helpful. But a first step in analysis is really coming to the dream as an experience. It's about the feeling in the dream. You were hinting at this in your opening comment. It's about what is this ? How is this dream washing over me ? What's it bringing to the surface ? So before we jump into analysis , we want to experience the dream. We want to come at the dream almost as if it's alive , as if it's valuable , as if there's another voice from deep within or from deep without speaking to us. From that perspective , then interpretation looks very different. Most dream interpretation in our world is what I call wake centric. We think that the dream is simply a mirror reflecting waking life. And I'll say to a large degree , that's probably true for most of us. But , you know , the notion of going into the looking glass. So the dream is not just a reflection , it's also a portal. It's also a passageway , a doorway. It's an opening to expanded consciousness. And I think this both excites and at the same time frightens a lot of people. It opens us up to other worlds. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. And I want to talk about , uh , this part of dreaming that just used to terrify me as a kid. Um , and , uh , I've later learned in life it's called sleep paralysis.
S2: The body turns off our ability to move when we dream. So because of that , we won't act the dream out. And it's not uncommon that sometimes we begin to awake , and the switch that reconnects us to our muscles isn't thrown yet. So we we feel paralyzed. It's called sleep paralysis. And you're also talking about combining sleep paralysis with a nightmare. And the two sometimes overlap and sometimes they don't. And so there's a question to a very common question about bad dreams and nightmares. You know , there's interesting data in in our world. Most dreams turn out to be bad dreams , and a lot of people are aware of that and will not want to dream. And there's a lot of speculation theories about why that is. For one thing , dreaming is a kind of psychological digestion. We dream about waking world events that that the body needs. The brain needs to process , digest and assimilate. We break them down as similarly to when we eat certain foods. It's digested , the foods are broken down in our GI tract , and then they're assimilated. They become part of us. Likewise , waking world experience is particularly ones that are a little difficult to digest. They get broken down in the dream. They're represented symbolically. And then there is assimilated. They they are downregulated in terms of emotion and they become a part of us. They become a part of our memory. And so a bad dream or a nightmare is a really it's about a really difficult to digest waking life experience. And I think it's important to consider that many times , bad dreams are a part of a good dream life.
S1: Well , you mentioned something. You mentioned wake centrism.
S2: When we think of waking as the. It's the standard for awareness , for consciousness , you know ? Um , we look then at sleep and dreams as being secondary and subservient. In fact , most of us believe , without thinking about it , that the only reason we sleep is to become better waking people , and that the only reason we dream is to help us be better waking people. And there's no doubt that sleep and dreams do help us in the waking world. They do lots of good , important things , you know , in terms of our health and our memory , our creativity , our productivity , they're wonderful. But the presumption that the only reason we sleep or dream is to be better waking Waking really closes down the possibility that sleeping and dreaming can also expand our world. They can expand our sense of self. They can expand consciousness.
S1: Can you talk about the connection between dreams , sleep and then your health outcomes ? Yeah.
S2: So another sort of hidden in plain view critical fact about dreaming is dreaming is the natural bridge between waking and sleep. And we're all aware that that insomnia , difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep , which is also difficulty falling asleep later in the night , uh , is another epidemic. People don't sleep well , and in fact , after 50 years of sleep medicine , things are not getting better. And the reason for that is there's a failure to recognize the importance , the full function of dreaming. We can't fall asleep normally without going through a dream at the beginning of the night. And it turns out that a lot of awakening in the middle of the night happens when dreaming , when REM sleep is starting to fire up. So we need a new respect , a new regard. We need a new relationship with the dream world for lots of reasons. And one of them is it really is the secret of getting back to sleep when you can't sleep. I recommend to my patients who have insomnia when they're trying to sleep. Simply remember a dream. Think about a dream you had yesterday or last year. Think about a dream you saw in a film or someone else told you. As soon as you go into that dreamy type of consciousness , you've positioned yourself right next to her to sleep.
S1: And I know so many people , um , depend on medications , uh , and other things to induce sleep. Um , what alternatives would you propose ? And how can people improve their sleep hygiene ? Yeah.
S2: So so before the alternatives , you know , this is a challenging point , but it turns out that the majority of the most commonly used psychiatric medications in our world today , to varying degrees , interfere with dreaming. We're so unaware of , so unconscious about the importance of dreaming that we give little , little regard to the fact that we suppress our dreams. Psychiatric medications , excessive alcohol , and as useful medically as it can be , even cannabis can interfere with dreaming. So one thing we need to do to increase good quality sleep and dreams is to recognize what is impairing that. And these things that I just mentioned , you know , I think in terms of sleep hygiene , um , this is not a not a popular thing , I'm going to say , but sleep hygiene as a standalone intervention doesn't work. I want to emphasize it's important every part of a sleep hygiene recommendation is necessary. But we know through a lot of research that it's not enough to get you to sleep. I just wrote a paper I'm about to publish about dream hygiene. I think what's missing in our sleep health is we forget how critical dreaming is in so many different ways. So we need to do things that help us dream better. And I'd say number one on that list is cultivate memories of your dream , remember your dreams. And and as importantly , it's important to share our dreams. You know , John Lennon had a great line. He said , A dream that we dream alone is just a dream. A dream that we dream together is reality. And I think it's obviously it's very poetic , but I think there's something more than poetry. And then I think there's , there's when we share our dreams , we in fact , is data that shows when we share dreams with other people , we increase empathy. When , when you and I would sit down and share a dream , there's a part of me that would listen to you and look at you and think , oh my God , you have a dreamer inside of you , just like me. It reminds us that there's there's something deep in each of us that is alike , that is similar. And again , research shows that people who are in dream groups or community dream circles on a regular basis become more empathic. And God knows , we could use more empathy in the world today. Wow.
S1: Wow. It's such an eye opening conversation about something we do when we when our eyes are closed. I've been speaking with Reuben Nyman , psychologist and clinical assistant professor of medicine at the University of Arizona. Thanks so much for joining us , Ruben.
S2: My pleasure. Thank you.
S1: Coming up , we'll talk about the power of lucid dreaming.
S3: You know , we tend to think we know ourselves , but then we look at our subconscious and there's just so much in there. Because humans , I think we've become really disconnected from our dreams. And and it's just such a big part of ourselves.
S1: Hear more when KPBS Midday Edition returns. Welcome back to KPBS Midday Edition. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. On today's show , The Science and Psychology of Dreaming , some of us are haunted by the villains of childhood movies like Freddy Krueger. For others , recurring nightmares are informed by what happens in the waking hours. Still , some have found solace through the practice of lucid dreaming. That's when someone is actually aware they're dreaming and can even control what they do in the dream. Kristen LaMarca is a licensed clinical psychologist who is board certified in behavioral sleep medicine. She practices at lucidity , sleep and Psychiatry in Vista. Her 2019 book is called Learn to Lucid Dream Powerful Techniques for awakening , Creativity and Consciousness. Kristin , welcome to Midday Edition.
S3: Thank you so much for having me.
S1: So glad you're here. So I feel like there's a lot of confusion around what lucid dreaming is.
S3: We tend to operate under the assumption that we are awake and we treat the dream as real , or we just accept the bizarre occurrences of our dreams without really thinking much about what we're doing or what state we're in. When you become lucid in a dream , this means that you remember that you're dreaming right now while still in the dream state , and this remembering this knowledge that you're dreaming. It's very explicit. So you're able to say out loud , this is a dream. I'm in a dream body. My real body is asleep in my bed. Uh , this is a dream character. I'm in a dream room. And so by understanding that the state you're in is not real. This comes with a number of other facets that can help you explore the state much more creatively than you could if you did not know that you were dreaming. So one important tenet is that because , you know it's a dream , you know you're physically safe. You cannot be harmed. You also know that there are no direct , real world consequences to what you choose to explore there. So that opens up a lot of freedom and flexibility to explore the state. Another thing that you learn in this state is that dreams are very malleable. In dreams , we have an absence of inputs from the external material world. That's typically what dictates what we perceive , what shapes our reality. But when that's absent your thoughts , your memories , your expectations , your emotions , they become tangible. You can think something or intend something or wish for something. And before you know it , you begin to dream about it. And this gives people a lot of access to different experiences. Experiences that might be hard to have or even impossible to have in the waking world. You can remember pre sleep intentions , things you wanted to explore in the dream state before you fell asleep , so you can remember those goals when you're lucid and choose to fly. Or maybe you could , uh , try to have an encounter with a deceased parent and have a conversation. So this opens people up to a lot of valued experiences that can be very enriching. And at regular life , even the lucid dream experience itself. We know from research even that it's associated with a lot of positive emotions , transcendent or spiritual experiences , especially without those inputs from the material world. It's associated with peak experiences where you have great joy. There's lots of awe and beauty , so you can imagine that there's a lot of applications that can come from this.
S1: Yeah , we'll talk about that a little bit more. I mean , why is lucid dreaming important to understanding yourself more ? Mhm.
S3: I think a good way to look at it is understanding the nature of your mind a little bit better. Uh , we tend to operate in our normal waking lives , as if we kind of have to just go with the flow , or a lot of things are outside of our control or influence , and this can give people a negativity bias or get them stuck in maladaptive patterns in their lives or relationships or emotions. When you're in the lucid state. You learn that how you adjust your perspective can really help. You have experiences that you desire. And because of those ingredients , like having that feeling of safety in the lucid dream state , knowing its malleability and , um , the capacity to tap into valuable experiences. This can help you get to know yourself in ways that can shape your experiences to be much more positive and more self connected. Your dreams. If you explored lucid dream practice , you probably also will encounter more dark or shadowy parts of the self. These are parts of the self that tend to be represented in dreams , and more like disturbing or unsettling types of images , and that can represent parallels in our own waking lives where we tend to push away parts of ourselves , parts of ourselves that we don't really like or want to think about , or want to grow from. Lucid dreaming can put you in direct confrontation with those aspects of your experience , and there's a lot of tenets and frameworks to help you learn to work with that in a way that might be better or easier compared to frameworks in waking life. And I do believe that has to do with those key ingredients around safety the malleability , the psychological flexibility that lucid dreaming tends to bolster.
S1: Yeah , well , how has lucid dreaming helped you ? Mhm.
S3: This is difficult to answer because it's completely changed my perspective on reality. There's so many ways that it has shifted me to different perspectives that I don't know if I would have realized in my life if I did not pursue this as a journey. You know , for example , out-of-body experiences are very common in lucid dreams. In fact , every dream is a type of body experience. You're not in your real body at night , so to be able to learn and understand how consciousness can persist without actually having a physical body has helped me feel more spiritually connected , and helped me consider ways that I can be less attached to things that cause me suffering or don't serve me very well. Um. The state. Not only does it help me get to know my own mind , but it's helped me be more critical of my reality. So my reality might be painted to me a certain way , or I might have some interpretation of it in waking life. But lucidity teaches you to be critical about those narratives and reconstruct a narrative that actually is more accurate and more precise and more helpful and balanced in in many ways , uh , it's I could probably keep going , but it's definitely a journey. I'm really happy that I've started on , and I encouraged people to pursue if they're interested. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Wow. Well , can you explain , like the sensation of lucid dreaming ? I mean , what does it feel like ? Which of your senses are activated ? Mhm.
S3: I mean , it's pretty thrilling. Every time you get lucid you can feel just so happy. So much joy. It's very exciting. Sometimes people get so excited. They start to wake up though. So you want to try to regulate that. But you know there's there's some other , uh , angles on this , like how it's helped me with , uh , working with bad dreams and nightmares and sometimes nightmares that have been recurring or repetitive and caused me a good amount of , uh , distress. And of course , those dreams. You're not as happy , but it's good. It's a good feeling to become lucid in those because , you know , that you're not going to get hurt at that point , and you have more options available to you. I could share a little bit about , uh , a recurring nightmare experience I had early in my training. It was actually to do with me becoming lucid in sleep paralysis. So I'd be lying in my bed. But I knew it was a dream because I was completely frozen and my voice was paralyzed , and there would always be some sort of scary creature or visitor in the room. So there was once this bloody , mangled woman on the floor. There was a mummy under my bed once , but it was terrifying at the time. And , you know , I would wake up with this terrible feeling. So I ended up seeking guidance about this , and I learned that I should try to view these elements in my dreams as representing some part of me. It could be through a metaphor , or representing something very real in my life , or my past , or my relationships. And rather than trying to get rid of them or run away from them , or fearing them or being upset about them , I should try to engage with them. Uh , try to have more of a goal that's oriented towards self connection and healing and acceptance and integration. So what you're supposed to do in these types of states is avoid that automatic urge to engage in fight , flight , freeze type of behaviors , which is what most people do in nightmares when they're afraid they're going to be hurt or killed. So because you know you're safe , you're able to do that much more easily. Now , the next time I got lucid in this state is the same thing as paralyzed in bed. This time there was this behemoth , sphinx like beast next to my bed , and I could hear it heaving in anger. And I knew it was a dream , but I was still terrified. So after calming myself , I reminded myself of some of those tenants to help you engage with nightmares and be more constructive. And one of those is to try to have a friendly dialogue , try to reconcile with it. See if you can help it or if it can help you in some way. So I tried to speak , but my voice was still paralyzed. But because it's a dream , I knew this is my dream. I don't need to speak for this creature to hear me. I could just project my thoughts almost like telepathy. So I decided to introduce myself. I said , hi , I'm Kristen and , uh , thanks for being in my dream. I'm sorry you seem upset or angry. Would you like to talk ? And then it began to wag its tail. So it immediately became friendly when I did that. And it was just so delightful to see that. And just adorable. It completely changed the feeling of the dream. And I was unstuck. I was able to get out of bed. I knelt down in front of it and I hugged it , and the creature disappeared into my chest. And so that's one of those types of lucid nightmares where you see that classic imagery of acceptance and integration. And one of the more remarkable things about it was that the nightmares stopped. They stopped recurring. I never had another one after that. And I've seen this time and time again in my practice and through other anecdotes from people in the community where lucid dreaming can disrupt repetitive , recurring nightmares and completely stop them from recurring. And if you don't get to a point where you apply your theory that constructively , you can still see plenty of shifts and changes in your dreams and help you progress on that path toward working through whatever your dreaming mind is trying to get you to pay attention to. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. That's interesting. I had a similar experience. Like as a child , I always had this , um , recurring nightmare where where I was standing in a room and Freddy Krueger was approaching. Um , but I was paralyzed. I couldn't move , I couldn't scream , and I was also out of body because I'm watching. I'm observing this happen through the upper corner of the room. Um , and then I wake up , like. But I wake up by moving my head in real life.
S3: Oh I see. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. And what. So what do you make of that. Mhm.
S3: Mhm. Well uh Freddy Krueger is an interesting character because wasn't he a Nightmare on Elm Street. He was. Yeah.
S1: And so you when you were talking about well you know , I , I talk with these creatures. In my dream , I didn't feel like I needed to talk to Freddy because I already watched the movie. We know what that guy's about.
S3: Hostile dream characters can be very threatening , even if you know that they're lucid. But I did courage people to try it. See why he's there. Welcome him to your dream and ask him why is he visiting you ? Maybe he's just trying to help you become more lucid. Um , uh , the floating over the bed experiences. Interesting. So you were like a bodiless point of awareness where you could see yourself in bed , and then. Well , I.
S1: Wasn't in bed. I'm standing in this room , black and white floor , something looking like The Shining. Right. And , uh , each white square is lighting up , uh , you know , and then going dark , and then another one lights up and it goes dark. And I'm just standing in the center of this small room , and I'm floating in the corner , but I'm observing myself just standing there. Mhm. Um , and I can and I had this sensation of not being able to move or scream or do anything of just being paralyzed. Right.
S3: Which could be a difficult situation. But same thing. Those friendly dialogues I think can go a really long way. And just trying to find out what he's looking for or I mean , take a look at him. He's got his face all scratched up. He's clearly very angry. Something happened to him , maybe something in his life that was difficult or caused him a lot of suffering , or maybe resentments. Try to talk to him and see what he might need. Or you could also ask him to help you. So you're obviously in my dream. You're trying to get my attention. Is there anything you have to teach me or share with me ? I'm open to that. And usually the dream will go in a direction that tends to be positive or eye opening. So it's getting over those fears , I think is the biggest hurdle for most people , but lucidity might be able to help you do that. Interesting.
S1: Interesting. It's been years since I've had that dream. Before he could get the first swipe in , I woke up , but.
S3: Maybe they'll have one tonight. Now.
S4: Oh gosh , what will. I.
S1: I.
S4: Do ? Um. All right , well.
S1:
S3: Some are more advanced than others. I can give you a simple three step progression that can probably get you started. So lucid dreaming is based in , uh , memory exercises. So you want to first work on improving your dream recall. So that means writing down your dreams , having a dream journal , trying to pay attention to them. And once you have a good number of dreams , let's say you've written down a dream once a day for a week. You want to scan your journal and look for cues in the dreams , events , occurrences that could serve as a memory cue for lucidity. So you want to look that things or look for things that are impossible in waking life , or maybe just odd or unusual , discrepant from your daily routines or things that tend to be dreamlike. Maybe it's something that's not that unusual , but you tend to dream about it a lot. And these we like to call dream signs. So a sign that you're dreaming. Once you identify these dream signs , you want to do some memory exercises through your imagination. This is not unlike how an athlete who has a sport play go wrong after the fact. They might imagine themselves back in that scenario , but this time doing something different , doing what they wanted. And so they visualize and rehearse that you could do the same thing with your dreams. You take a dream , you didn't get lucid in and imagine yourself back in that dream , encountering that memory cue and this time remembering , oh yes , I'm dreaming right now. And then rehearse what you would do to enjoy the dream state. And you could do this a few cycles before bed. If you wake up in the middle of the night and you're going back to sleep , that's a really great time to do it. So you want to create those memory associations so they will start to occur to you while you're actually in the dreaming state. So if that sounds like a lot to get started , I do have a cheat code for you , and that is to begin thinking about in the daytime while you're awake , or at least while you think you're awake. What state you're in. So we could look around here right now and consider , uh , is there anything here that would indicate I might be dreaming ? Anything unusual or odd ? Um , maybe for you , Jade. Not so much. This is part of your normal routines. But for me , I don't normally end up in a radio station , so I could be dreaming right now. But how do I really know ? Um. I'm pretty convinced I'm awake. Feels like I'm awake. But I also think that same way in my dream. So what could really help me confirm what state I'm actually in ? So there's something called a state test. You could test what state you're in. Some people call this reality testing. And a really great way to do this is to find some printed text and read it. It's perfectly. People are perfectly capable of reading in dreams. But the trick is , if you read some texts and then you look away , but you read it again , it three out of four times in the dream state. It's going to change into something else. Might be a different word , a different font , or maybe the book you were looking at completely disappeared. So that would indicate to you , oh yes , I'm dreaming right now. Printed text tends to have more instability features compared to other objects or even people in dreams. We think now if it looks the same , you can double check to be really sure , but this time you look away and when you you want to imagine that when you look back , the text is going to change , then look back and confirm. Did it change or not ? If people do this in a dream like 95% of the time , it will change into something else. So this is a way for you to confirm after you've scanned for dream signs and you're pretty sure you're awake , what state you're in ? You could practice this a few times a day. Great time to do it is something dreamlike or odd. Kind of happens. Something out of the ordinary. And then the last step would be to set your mind , okay , I wasn't dreaming right now , but tonight I'm going to be dreaming. I'm going to be encountering all sorts of dream signs or these specific dream signs. So when I notice those , I'm going to remember that I'm dreaming.
S1: Okay , I'd say that is most important when you get up in the middle of the night to go to the restroom , you want to make.
S4: Sure this is real. Right.
S3: Right.
S4: Why is there going to be problems. All right. Well do you.
S1:
S3: I do believe there's also a nonsensical element to our dreams. It's just the way our brain tends to function. But if you pursue dreaming and trying to understand them and understand yourself , it's very easy to see parallels of what you're dreaming about , and this can be something really intuitive for people , and I think that can help people in their waking lives in lots of regards in terms of self understanding and insight and just getting to know themselves better. You know , we tend to think we know ourselves , but then we look at our subconscious and there's just so much in there. Um , as humans , I think we've become really disconnected from our dreams , and it's just such a big part of ourselves. I also think that lucid dreaming could really add another element to trying to understand your dreams and how they reflect your waking life. If you have that , uh , playground or environment of the dreamscape where you actually know you're safe , this can help you learn how to approach things in your life with less fear. Um. more accurate or balanced perspectives on your reality. It can push you beyond your ordinary limits or how you view yourself. So I definitely am an advocate for trying to understand your dreams , and I'm pretty aware that it can enrich your waking life.
S1: We can have a lot of revelations about ourselves through our dreaming. I've been speaking with Kristen LaMarca. She's a licensed clinical psychologist who's board certified in behavioral sleep medicine , and she practices at lucidity , sleep and psychiatry in Vista. Kristen , thank you so very much.
S3: This was wonderful. Thank you. Jade.
S1: Still ahead.
S5: Dreams are not only about our personal lives , but also address bigger themes in our communities , in our in our cultural lives as well.
S1: How politics can impact our dreams and how dreams may impact politics. Find out more when KPBS Midday Edition returns. Welcome back to KPBS Midday Edition. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Whether we like it or not , dreams can tell us a lot about ourselves and about our understanding of the world around us. Today on Midday Edition , it's dreamy edition , the psychology of dreams and how we interpret them. We just had a lucid dreaming lesson from a local psychologist in San Diego. But now let's zoom out to discuss broader understandings of dreams across cultures , religions , and even politics. I'm joined now by Kelly Bulkley , dream researcher and psychologist of religion , also director of the Sleep and Dream database. His latest book is called The Spirituality of Dreaming Unlocking the Wisdom of Our Sleeping Cells. Kelly , welcome to midday.
S5: Well , thanks for having me.
S4: Glad you're. Here.
S1: Here. So let's start with your book , The Spirituality of Dreaming. In it , you make this case that dreams really , truly matter on a spiritual level.
S5: However , people conceive that whether it's gods or ancestors or the higher self and and however people think of that , dreams have have been a reliable means of connecting with those powers and and bringing their energies into our lives. So that's , uh , that's true today , as it has been for thousands of years. And yeah , that's what the book tries to talk about.
S1: All right. Well , I want to dig into that more. I mean , in many cultures , dreaming is seen as a as a way of traveling between realms.
S5: And so there , there are sort of non-religious ways of appreciating the autonomous powers within each of our minds that , that , that psychologists refer to as , as the unconscious and so dreaming. Going back to Sigmund Freud , his idea that dreaming is what he called the royal road to a knowledge of the unconscious. Um , and so that's that's been a profound idea in the modern perspective on dreams , even though it I don't think many people recognize how deeply connected it's also to this , this religious perspective as well.
S1: Yeah , well , in various faith traditions interpret the significance of dreams differently.
S5: This is something we find throughout history , cultures all around the world and even into the present day. And whether or not one believes it , these are ghosts or spirits or deep wishes within our own unconscious. The dreams have a powerful impact on people of of reassurance , um , comfort. Sometimes sometimes warnings or , uh , guilt , but uh , but but powerful emotions in any case. And , uh , virtually all religious traditions recognize this. And think about what that means about the nature of the soul. The the what happens after we die. Um , what do what is life itself ? Yeah.
S1: Well , what about atheist views on dreaming ? I mean , does there seem to be a consensus there ? Yeah.
S5: You know , some some survey research I've done , uh , over the years has , uh , suggested that atheists in particular are skeptical towards dreams. Uh , uh , are more likely to believe that dreams are nothing but , um , random nonsense from the brain. Uh , and and I don't I don't think there's an automatic connection. I think , uh , atheism could potentially be very compatible with a an appreciation of the just in in neuroscientific language of the amazing things that are happening in our brains , uh , when we are asleep and dreaming. But it I think what what what happens now is that , uh , a belief in anything positive about dreaming is associated with supernatural , irrational beliefs that that that many atheists feel or , you know , that's that's what they're , they're opposed to. So so I get it , even though I don't think it has to be that way. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Well , you've also studied how dreams correlate with various political affiliations , which are two things I wouldn't have put together. But how are you studying this and what have you found so far ? Yes.
S5: So since the early 90s , I've been looking at dreams in relation to American politics and how people have dreamed about , uh , elections , uh , wars , uh , terrorist attacks , partly to , uh , provide some evidence showing that we dream this is a bigger theme of my , my research and that that dreams are not only about our personal lives , but also address bigger themes , uh , in our communities , in our in our cultural lives as well. Something that we find in many other , uh , periods of history. Other other cultures. Uh , and yet in the modern West , we've really kind of atomized dreams and individualized them so much that we sometimes forget that collective dimension of their , their meaning. So. So I've been looking at how people dream of politics and what they dream. And , uh , the short version of one of the key findings is that in terms of candidates , it seems , it does seem that people will dream of candidates whom they favor and whom. And even if they don't favor them , who they recognize have , um , a certain kind of charisma that , uh , often correlates with their winning the election. So , you know , most elections I've been able to see the the winner coming because that's the person people have been dreaming the most about.
S1: Well , you published a book all about the political connections to dreams back in 2008.
S5: Yes. It's been , uh , it's become more intense. I mean , so so another broad finding has been that dream recall. And interest in dreams tends to be higher on the political left of the United States compared to the political right. And that that still holds. But it also means that many of those people's dreams , with the the previous administration and now potentially another administration of President Trump , a lot of anxious dreams around that. So that's been a significant change to sort of his arrival on the scene. I mean , we don't need dreams to tell us this , of course , but dreams are tracking that that change in our political culture and , and its impact on on yet the quality of people's some people's dreams anyway.
S1: And you equate dreams with a source of play. Explain that for me. And where nightmares fit into that theory.
S5: Yeah , yeah. Well , there are many theories and ideas about the function of dreams. What ? What ? You know , why do we have dreams at all ? And and my way of looking at is that dreaming is a kind of play , uh , the play of the imagination. During sleep , when our bodies are , uh , released from any external stimuli or need to react to anything. Uh , we're free. And we , uh , our minds , uh , do what they do when we're otherwise , uh , free and not occupied by by the demands of the waking world. We we play and , uh , many of the , um , uh , the things that seem strange about dreams , they're sort of wild bizarreness and they're recurrent themes around , uh , certain survival related phenomena. Their prominence in youth tend to map pretty well onto , uh , the nature of play and what we know about play from the study of various animal species , not just humans. So I think there's there's a there's a sense that this is a way of explaining how dreams , why we dream without putting too much pressure on , why we need to interpret dreams. Because when children , for example , are playing , you don't need to interpret their play for them to enjoy the play and benefit from it. The play is the enjoyment and the benefit itself. Interpreting it maybe can be of some help , maybe not. But that's that's true with a lot of dreaming too. I don't think we always have to interpret our dreams or analyze them. Uh , just being aware of them and letting them have a their own little presence in our lives. Um , you , you know , you ask about nightmares and and dreams with negative emotions. And , uh , this I think is actually interesting because one of the most common types of play in the animal kingdom , among other animal species , uh , is play fighting , uh , different , uh , games that say , uh , animals , especially the young of a species , will play to practice , uh , hunting , uh , chasing , pouncing , uh , wrestling about. These are forms of play. They're they're they're they're not the real thing. Uh , they've got this sort of , uh , pretend aspect to them , but they're preparing for potentially real dangers and threats , uh , in , in , in the world. And I think in the same way , sometimes nightmares can be effective warnings. Uh , like , hey , this is something to pay attention to. Interesting.
S1: Interesting. Well , I mean , to examine that more. You're a big proponent of dream journaling. Um , talk about , you know , how that's a benefit. and what that practice provides.
S5: Yeah , yeah. Well , the the wonderful thing about keeping a dream journal is that as much as we can learn from exploring a single dream , um , much more opens up when we have a series of dreams to explore and look at and analyze. And , um , people have been doing this for for centuries , uh , recording their dreams and tracking them and looking for patterns And and now , thanks to various kinds of technology , we have , uh , uh , some really wonderful tools to help in that process. And , uh , so , yeah , so it's a way of , um , uh , seeing the patterns that , that we often sense in , in our dreams over time. But if you can't keep really , you know , good track of them , it's hard to be really sure about that and really appreciate them today. You know , we're lucky. We're really lucky today. We have great tools that can help us see these things that that other people , you know , have been dreaming of hoping for , you know , writing out an on graph paper or , you know , quill and parchment kind of kind of methods , you know , so these are really interesting times for dream research , where the combination of these tools and people willing to , um , keep track of their dreams over time , uh uh , I think it's going to accelerate the science of dreaming and really exciting ways.
S1: Yeah , well , and another thing , too. I mean , at least for myself , my dreams evaporate so quickly after waking up. Uh , right. You know that you don't remember them an hour later. Even so , writing that down right away could be really beneficial.
S5: Yeah , yeah. No , there's there's something about , uh , when we wake up and , you know , the activity of the day get going. Uh , the memory of a dream can , can can fade or disappear pretty quickly. So , yeah , different methods. Pad of paper and pen by the bedside or , you know , voice to text kind of thing or , uh , you know , I've , I've artist friends who like to sketch their dreams. Um , yeah. Whatever. I think you're exactly right. Kind of. Whatever you can catch , you know , as early upon awakening as you can. That's that's really , uh , the best time.
S1: I've been speaking with Kelly Bulkley , dream researcher and psychologist of religion , also director of the Sleep and Dream database. His latest book is called The Spirituality of Dreaming Unlocking the Wisdom of Our Sleeping Selves. Kelly , thank you so much for joining us.
S5: Yeah , yeah , thanks for having me. It's good to talk with you.
