S1: Welcome in San Diego , it's Jade Hindman. Today we are having a conversation about a mentorship program for young men dealing with trauma and modern day challenges. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. By many metrics. Young men today are facing challenges in school , in the workforce and in mental health. For example , Pew Research found the share of young men attending college has fallen since 2011 , from 47% to 44%. The number of men in the workforce has also declined. Men also face greater risk of death from overdose and suicide. And what's happening with young men today is getting more attention as of late. The hit Netflix show adolescence recently brought to the forefront the struggles of young men and boys. The fictional show dives into the experiences of a 13 year old boy , focusing on the impacts of what's called the manosphere , which is online content that often presents a very specific , often toxic view of masculinity. Joe Sigurdsson is the co-founder of Boys to Men Mentoring Network , which works with teenage boys and young men in schools across San Diego County. Joe , welcome to Midday Edition.
S2: Thanks for having me , Jade.
S1: So glad to have you on here. So we've mentioned in our intro here that boys and young men are facing challenges.
S2: Jade , you know , some of our guys are just , you know , struggling with grades. Some of our guys are struggling with relationships. You know , some of our guys are struggling with , you know , gang affiliation. They're they're struggling with their identity. They're just struggling with , you know , purpose and meaning and what this , this whole life is all about. There's this just seems to be a huge sense of disconnection in our community. You know , isolation and disconnection. And young men are kind of left on their own to figure out themselves in life. And , you know , it's produced , like you mentioned , some of the outcomes that are going on. But , you know , boys are failing in school. You know , 70% of all failing grades are boys , you know , and dropout rates. And yeah , there's a myriad of of struggles that boys are dealing with. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And has that that changed ? I mean , how have the types of struggles boys and young men faced today differ from when you started this work ? Yeah , 25 years ago. More than 25 , 29. Oh my. Goodness.
S2: Goodness. Yeah. Yeah. Really different. Like there wasn't an internet in 1996 and there were no smartphones. Uh , you know , and , uh , and things really. You know , like. Like we would do these , uh , orientations at the stadium , and I would take boys out into the stadium and talk about. This is a place where grown men live out their childhood dreams. You know , they you know , they play professional baseball , they play professional football , they race motorcycles , they do monster trucks. They , uh , sing in front of 70,000 fans. You know , this is a place of dreams. Um , what are your dreams ? And the boys would have some idea of what ? Their dreams , what their aspirations are. And then when I said , well , this weekend , let this weekend be a starting point for you to get on a path to really live out your dreams. Because right now , fellas , anything's possible and we want to come alongside you and help you do that. And then I would say , how many of you guys are up for an adventure ? And 100% of the boys would put their hands up. And I say , well , this might be the most challenging weekend of your life. But if you guys are up for it , let's do it. And then , I don't know , 2006 seven when flip phones came out and texting was a thing , I remember I got to that question , how many of you guys are up for an adventure ? And like 85 , 90% of them would put their hands up and it was like , oh , okay. So not everybody wants to go , you know. So. And you know what the I think the iPhone came out in 2007. By 2010 everybody had it. And you know , we had flipped things around. You know , we had gone to the in school group mentoring model where we would build a community of of men and boys meeting weekly in the schools and building the relationships in the trust and then taking them up. But even even with that , getting guys to commit to coming to the weekend , I mean , there was just like a real lack of accountability.
S1: And but those challenges , though , there's they're still pretty much the same.
S2: Oh no no , no , they're very different. Yeah , they're very different. Everybody was up for an adventure. Building the connection was much easier. You know , I think Covid really hurt our kids a lot. I think that two years of isolation and disconnection , you know , their identity was created more online , more of a digital reality than an actual reality. And we got to experience kids because you got to you know , we did the first training in 1998 and there was still like , you know , pick up football games , pick up baseball games. There was , you know , riding your bikes and til the streetlights come on. And getting home. That was still part of the culture. It was at play based. But you know this , the kids that are brought up , you know , with iPads and iPhones are , um , experiencing a lot more anxiety and a lot more isolation and disconnection to reality. So overcoming that is , um , one of our challenges and , um , that we , we didn't really have in our early , our early days. Wow.
S1: Wow. I mean , I'm hearing you talk , and it almost sounds like the cell phones and the tablets are stealing away ambition and imagination.
S2: Well , you know , it's creating a false sense of community and connection , and it's all based on content and and having to continuously produce content that reflects something that isn't even happening. Yeah. Yeah.
S1: Well , I mean , so you work with teenage boys in schools , in circles ? Yeah.
S2: Some of them may be struggling with drugs. Some of them may be struggling with gang affiliation. Some of them may be emos. They're cutters. They're acting out certain ways. So we'll start with with that kind of group of young men and we'll say , you know , welcome to boys to men , fellas. You may or may not want to be here. And we understand that. But you have to be here for the next six weeks. So if you will give us six weeks to earn your trust , to earn your respect at the end of that six weeks , if you still don't want to be here , it's okay. You can leave. But if you do want to be here , we want you to invite your friends. And so typically when we get started , it's it's the men and the mentors sharing our stories about what happened to us as young men. You know , how how we felt , the choices we made , the price we paid for those choices. And and when the boys hear the men being authentic and honest and vulnerable , it creates a safety and a , you know , a liminal space for the boys to step in and share their truth. And so , uh , uh , and then when we get the truth on the table now , now we , we've got an opportunity to make some meaningful choices from an authentic place instead of continuing with the con game. But that takes time. You know , that takes time. We we , the men have to really be be there just to listen and accept and encourage. You know , we're not there to fix. We're not there to rescue anybody. We're not there to give advice , and we're certainly not there to project our reality into. Theirs , because we don't know anything about these kids. And it's very we do a lot of training to keep our mentors mindful of of that and that our only objective is to listen , accept and encourage and take everything they say at face value. And then when we build that trust , then we get the opportunity to ask open ended questions like , is this what you want ? How's that working ? You know , if we could wave a magic wand over this situation , what would you want ? Different. And that's when the the boys can identify what they really want. And then we ask them , what are you willing to do ? And then when they they make those commitments , they identify what they're willing to do and , and commit to them. Our job is to honor them for their courage and , and validate their feelings and then offer support. And and the support usually looks like a text message or , or a phone call or an Instagram message to make sure they're staying on task , on task , to do what they say they want to do , to become the men they say they want to be.
S1: So , Joe , you've mentioned how some of these teens , you know , they're struggling with their relationships with their parents , for example , their mothers. Yeah. Talk a bit more about that.
S2: And he also knows moms that safe dumping ground. You know , all that transference of that anger and frustration that may be directed at a coach or a teacher or a father that's abandoned him. All gets dumped on mom. And so in these circles , we kind of bring some consciousness to that. And we ask him , so what's one thing you could do this week to be kinder to your mom ? Well , I could just ask her how her day went instead of being a jerk. Okay ? You're willing to do that ? Yeah. Okay. Good choice. Brandon. Who's going to support Brandon in this choice ? And then Andrew puts up his hand and says , all right , all right , Brandon , it's Tuesday. I'm going to text you on Thursday to see if you're being kind to your mom. And so we set up that support and that accountability. And then the following week Brandon comes in. Hey , Brandon , you said you wanted a better relationship with your mom. You said you were going to ask her how her day went. Did you do that ? Yes. Great. Tell us how that went. Did you do that ? No. Great. Tell us how that went. It's about meeting them right where they are and then asking them. Okay , what kind of a man do you want to be this week ? And so week by week , they're making these new choices. They're getting support and accountability around these choices. And they're moving towards becoming the men they want to be. And it's it's just an ongoing process. And and you know , with that consciousness they're making better choices , healthier choices , and and creating deeper connections with , you know , with their families and also inside the circles. And they know they're not alone.
S1: Well , and on that , we spoke with Joe Ross. He's a group facilitator with boys to men who was wonderful. Yeah , he was actually in the program as a teenager. Well , here's a little of what he told us about his early days in the program and how he was initially skeptical.
S3: But they kept showing up. They showed up every week , same time , same day , whether I wanted them to be there or not , whether I wanted to be there or not , they were going to be there for me. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. So is that a common response there that Joe had I mean not wanting to be there at first. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. Oh yeah. You know we've got a very , very tough group but a lot of them are on probation. A lot of them are in foster care and they're tough. And the resistance is like over the top. Like , there's like zero buy in. And I just say , look , fellas , good for you. Keep that resistance strong. You know , I don't know what happened to you guys , but I know you've got to protect yourselves , and I respect that , and I honor that. But , fellas , physics is in place here. It's going to be physics. And I promise you , I'm gonna be here next week. Tom's going to be here next week. Joe's going to be here next week. And at some point , something's going to bust loose. And I want to be here when that happens. So we'll see you next week. And it's just just showing up and chipping away. You know building the trust , chipping away , sharing our stories , letting them know we're not going anywhere. And and and some of these kids have been extremely betrayed. You know , they've got serious trauma.
S1: You know , you emphasize two key pieces to this work with boys. One on responsibility , the other on forgiveness. Tell me more about that.
S2: Well , good for you. You've done your homework. Uh , Jade ? So. So once the kids identified that stuff , when we get. We invite him up for our Adventure Mountain weekend. You know , now we get instead of , like , an hour once a week , we've got three days to take a deep dive into the the the , the the traumas and the beliefs that these guys are operating from. And in that we take them through a series of processes that help them identify what their part is , you know , and how they've co-created this reality. They make commitments to find some sort of resolution , and in that resolution , they make a commitment to move through it. And with that commitment , they they list action steps that they're willing to do. And we call this the road mapping process. And we write all of this down. So they're literally telling us What's in the way ? What their commitment is for moving through it. And what they've got to do to to to get to the other side , you know , and that there's freedom on the other side. That's what we keep pushing for these guys. And really it comes down to two things. It's what do you need to take responsibility for or who do you need to forgive. And if you can take responsibility for your part , that the world will meet you halfway and get you over the finish line ? And if you can find grace and forgiveness to those who have harmed you , have betrayed you , have hurt you , you're going to make a lot more room in your life for for healthier and better choices. And that's that's our goal and objective of our Adventure Mountain weekends and the processes that we do to get these boys to this place in their life and is , is you kind of got to see it to believe it. It's it's kind of gnarly.
S1: Earlier we heard from Boys to Men facilitator Joe Ross , who went through the program as a teen. Here is more of his reflections and his struggles on dealing with anger.
S3: I don't have the energy , or I don't want to exert the energy of just being negative to be that angry kid , you know ? I want to know what it feels like to be happy , to be relaxed and always tensed up and angry. Um , so yeah , I would definitely say at first it was just trying to navigate through that anger of not having men in my life and being able to take off my armor and let these men in who actually want to be there to support me and , you know , help me become a great man.
S1: So reflecting on Joe's journey there and all the other young men you've served over the years. If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing to help boys , what would that be ? Mm.
S2: Make sure they know they're not alone. That they're not. They're not weird. That that there's a universality of growing up , you know , that we've all got our challenges and , uh , you know , and that's the beauty of these circles. You know , when one young man is talking about the anger and the frustration he's feeling in relationship to his parents. You know , the kid next to him will say , you know , I'm doing the same thing. Our kid is is in his grief over his parents splitting up , and another boy can come up and put his hand on him and said , I was eight years old when my parents divorced. And , you know , the empathy and the compassion and the peer to peer mentoring that goes on inside those circles is , is is super powerful. So the one thing I'd want them to know is , look , you're not alone. And anything you've got to say has power in it. And there's freedom on the other side. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. Earlier we talked about , you know social media and mentioned the manosphere. Can you talk a bit about what these young men are being exposed to in the manosphere.
S2: Well , I can talk in broad terms , you know , but I tell you what , it is a real thing , and there is a lot of toxic messaging going on. And it's and and a lot of it is directed at women. Almost all of it is directed at women. The toxic stuff , you know , there's some stuff , there's some empowerment stuff. But man , it's so over the top. And it is so clouded with this view that women are inferior , that women are to be conquered , that that they are there to serve them. And I don't , you know , there's this guy. I'm sure you're familiar with Andrew Tate , right ? Yeah. And. Yeah , yeah. And , uh , his message is , uh , pretty horrific and terrifying in that , you know that to be a man , you have to be you have to be wealthy. You have to be powerful. You have to dominate. You have to , you know , there's you know , that emotion is a weakness. You know that compassion and empathy are useless. And , you know , there's just not a lot of humanity in the messaging going on in the manosphere. And so really , beastmen is like a a place where we're trying to introduce that humanity back into these young men's lives and teach them something about compassion and empathy and connection. You know , I mentioned earlier about that , that that very tough group , you know , most of those kids are addicted , you know , and and , you know , the the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. It's it's connection. And so , you know , by building connection with these young guys , uh , we're creating safety , emotional safety for them. And , and we know that in these circles that we are raising their emotional quotient , you know , their emotional intelligence , you know , they're becoming more self-aware. They have better interpersonal and interpersonal personal skill sets better anger management and stress management skills , you know. So. So there's some really great outcomes that are coming to our young men by participating in our Boys to Men program. That is the antithesis of the manosphere.
S1: I've been speaking with Joe Sigurdsson. He's the co-founder and chief success officer with Boys to Men Mentoring Network. Joe , thank you so much for joining us today.
S2: Thank you Jade.
S1: That's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
