S1: It's time for Midday Edition on KPBS. As we remember nine over 11 , we're talking about the first hand experiences and lessons learned from that day. I'm Jade Hyndman with conversations that keep you informed and inspired and make you think. We'll talk with a first responder coping with the long term impacts of 911 on his physical and mental health.
S2: I couldn't believe , you know , the devastation and what had happened , the sights , the smells , the sounds that we went through. So. But when we go there we are , you know , we are really good about compartmentalizing.
S1: Plus , we'll hear from another San Diegan who was working in New York when 9/11 happened. Then we'll turn to lessons learned about foreign and domestic policies. That's ahead on Midday Edition. It's been more than two decades since the terrorist attacks on nine over 11 , but the events from that day and the foreign policy decisions that followed still echo around the globe and in the psyche of people who remember that day , where they were , what they were doing , especially if they were at ground zero. San Diego Fire Rescue's assistant Fire Chief , John Wood , was part of the Urban Search and Rescue team sent to New York in the aftermath. And he joins me now to talk about his experience. John , welcome to the show.
S2: Thanks for having me.
S1: Glad to have you here.
S2: Had two pretty new baby boys at home. One was one and one was four , and I was trying to catch a little catnap because we had a busy shift the night before. And then my wife's school teacher actually called me and said , turn on the TV. Something really bad is happening in New York , and that's when I turn on the TV and I realize , wow , that is. That's terrible.
S1: As a first responder , was your instinct to really try to get there and help ? Absolutely.
S2: So when we're first looking at it as professionals , you're looking at it okay , what would I do ? Um , and you have the gift of not being there , just being shocked by it and happening. But we would have done the same thing that FDNY and NYPD were doing. We're going in the building to help rescue people. Nobody really expected for the towers to crumble. And when that occurred , that was a very tragic. And then your mind kind of switches a little emotional. Just knowing some of your brothers and sisters just just perished in that horrible event. Right.
S1: Right. So then , in terms of your role and in being sent up there , tell me about that. Sure.
S2: Sure. So after the , uh , the the towers collapsed right afterwards , I think after the first tower , actually , I got a phone call saying that. Pack your bags. You're going to New York with our Urban Search and Rescue team , California Task Force eight here at San Diego Fire. So , got my bags packed. Um , told the wife you need to come home , take care of the kids. And then I headed off to the user cache , which is down by Liberty Station in our naval training center. Mhm.
S3: Mhm.
S1: So , I mean , tell me about your experience at ground zero on the search and rescue team.
S2: Yeah , absolutely. So my experience so we did 12 days there from the moment you got there. The pictures don't do it justice. The whole magnitude is my first time ever going to New York. I've been there many times since. And just the magnitude of it. You can't believe that these buildings. I was at One Liberty Plaza and it was still standing in that building I was looking at. I grew up in Los Angeles , so I know what big buildings and skyscrapers are like. And I looked at that building , and I realized that the World Trade Center was actually twice as big as that building. And it was much , much larger than any building I've ever seen in L.A.. So it was amazing to see that. And I couldn't believe , you know , the devastation and what had happened. The sights , the smells , the sounds that we went through. So. But when we go there we are. You know , we are really good about compartmentalizing your emotions. And we get busy because we have a job to do and that's to save lives. And unfortunately , now it's also to recover the victims. Yeah.
S1: Yeah.
S2: So there were 80 person teams. So they started sending every single team they could at that. And we went in waves. So they'd send , you know , maybe um , 6 to 8 teams out. And then we just kept sending more , um , firefighters across the US , including some of our own , uh , traveled there to get there , which was a long travel to get there to help out on the pile. And so then you had FDNY and every neighboring fire agency they're coming in. And FDNY is a gigantic departments , the largest in the US. So there was a lot of people there. It took a lot of coordination. Thank goodness for our incident command system and being coordinated in what we were doing , in looking at the different sectors and then making sure that we do the the search and rescue that we needed to do.
S1:
S2: We ended up , uh , recovering several victims. So a couple of whole bodies and a lot of body parts. So we ended up it was day six when we were actually sent. So as soon as we got to the cache , they said , hey , we're going to go in second wave of the urban search and rescue task forces. And then we went in there and then we we got to , um , you know , I look back on it and we got to a couple Port Authority officers we took out of the pile and then bring them back to their family for a proper burial and for them to grieve.
S1: Well , the just the magnitude of this event , the work sounds like it was grueling.
S2: It's it's strange because when you're in game mode and you're you're there at work doing a job that's so critical. It doesn't hit you at all there , but it hits you years later. And back then , we didn't have a whole lot of stress debriefing. But we did have a critical incident stress debriefing session where we had one of those. And , um , right afterwards , it's not as as back then it was very , very odd for somebody to go ask for help. And then now I can tell you , I'm so proud of San Diego Fire Rescue , our health and safety office. We have peer counselors. We have professionals at focus that we can go talk to. We have emotional support dogs. We have chaplains. So we have a wide variety of of being able to reach out. And usually it's just by talking to another firefighter or somebody that's been through what you've been through really helps. We didn't know at that time what PTSD was , but we were definitely for years and years living it. We don't we don't get that. You know , in world trade you do in some big incidents you might get that instant , you know , quick rapid Disaster type stress. Um , but we do it for 30 years , so we're going on calls , you know , anywhere from 10 to 20 calls a day on a fire engine , and that adds up. So it was good we had that and could talk about it. But back then there wasn't a whole lot of resources for that. Since then , there's been a whole lot more and we really keep we're a close knit group. I see a lot of the retiree guys every year , and then we just keep an eye on each other.
S1: Yeah , well , you know , beyond the emotional impact , there was a huge impact on people's health who were in the vicinity of the Twin Towers like yourself.
S2: I'm doing great so far. And I say so far because we were breathing some terrible chemicals. Since then , we've had some some of our retired , um , rescue workers actually come down with lung issues. So we are keeping a close eye on a World Trade health registry. The I can say honestly , that New York , the federal government. The state of New York , they've all done a really good job. FDNY , the Iaff , all of those organizations have done really well at making sure we're taking care of , and that we passed the proper things in Congress to take care of those that really were the rescue workers there on ground zero. So they're keeping an eye on me. So far , so good , thank goodness. But you never know when those things are going to pop up. And we have had some of our task force members come down with some lung issues.
S1: Well , I'm glad to hear that you're in good health. Um , tell me , what is the World Trade Health Registry , though , and what kind of resources are there for first responders in the area ? Sure.
S2: They basically send you something each year to check on. You , see what you're doing. They're just keeping track of all the the sicknesses that happen from the world trade. So if you all sudden , you know , you might have a lung cancer or something pops up , it might have been from the World Trade Center , and then they'll try and take care of you and your family as best they can with , um , with funding and treatments and all that stuff. Most of us , like , we're lucky here in California because it's going to be worker's comp for me. So the city is going to take care of me. But there's a lot of places that in other states that don't really have those state rights. And so it's imperative that the federal government picks up that end. And the World Trade Health Registry is one of them that does that. So that way we can keep an eye on each other and make sure everybody gets the resources and the medical care that they need to. Yeah.
S3: Yeah.
S1:
S2: It's so weird to think , man , that was 23 years. But , you know , I even look in the mirror and go , wow , I'm that old now. But saying that is that , you know , one thing I'm really proud of is there's a huge banner that said , never forget , um , at the World Trade Center. And , um , I can honestly say that the , uh , country by and large , and people have never forgotten on that. I can remember talking to a Pop Warner , um , team years , years later , and the many of the the Pop Warner team , um , many of the kids there went to war after that. And , um , a lot of downstream effects from something like that. But never forgetting is what we got to do , and we got to do these things and talk about it. It's not my favorite thing to do , but , you know , I get out each year and make sure that we , um , we let all the new kids know that , you know , some horrible things and some despicable acts that we will never forget about. It happened. And , um , keep those at perished in that building alive. I'm so proud to be part of the the rescue workers that went there and all the firefighters and the police officers , and for us to do that hard work and , and be able to , um , to , to help , I cannot imagine being home and not being able to help when a disaster like that happened. So I'm honored to have done that. And , um , I just just tell people , just never forget about it. Yeah.
S3: Yeah.
S1: You know , as a journalist , when I cover tragedies like 911 and when I covered the deployments thereafter , One of the things that I had to do was compartmentalize a lot of the things that were happening in order to be emotionally okay.
S2: Yeah , we're we're pretty pros at doing it. And sometimes , you know , you wonder , man , am I just heartless to be able to compartmentalize. And some of us are really good at it. I do very well at it and then just move on to to get the job done. But it's something that's going to affect you as you get older , as you go downstream. And when you spend all these years working hard , you want to make sure that you're taking care of yourself mentally. Um , you know , we do that. We do physically work out every day , but mentally you really want to make sure you're good because you want to be able to spend that retirement with your family that sacrificed so much for you to go out and do all these dangerous things to make sure that mentally you're prepared. So , you know , use all the resources that you can talk about it. It's not going to go away by not talking about it. Um , that's been hard for me for many years , but I figured out that I need to go out and talk about it. Um , there was many , many years , probably a good ten years afterwards where I would be on large wildland fires. I'd be on hurricanes with the FEMA system , with San Diego Fire on the strike teams. And I would be working. And I found that work like just made me forget about , you know , that. But it comes back. It comes back when you're home and you're watching these videos and everything else in each year. So it's a tough thing we go through , but we all need to get out there and talk about it and make sure we're mentally healthy and and we can have fun in retirement. Yeah.
S3: Yeah.
S1:
S2: So we'll be putting that on. And we I go and be at county admin building and I'll be doing a speech for them. So we'll be on the midday way in the afternoon , um , honoring and reading all the first responders names and all the people that perished from that , from that tragic day. So it's a it's a good way to honor everybody , to remember and to never forget. So I'm proud of everybody. I'm proud of KPBS for doing this.
S1: Well , thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I've been speaking with John Wood. He's an assistant fire chief at San Diego Fire and Rescue , part of the fire and rescue team who went up to the Twin Towers after nine over 11. John , thank you so much for joining us and sharing your experience.
S2: Thank you.
S1: Coming up , she survived the nine over 11 attacks in New York.
S4: I should have died that day , I should have. And I'm so happy I didn't. I ? I've gotten 23 extra years.
S1: Hear her story when KPBS Midday Edition returns. Welcome back to KPBS midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman. We just heard from San Diego Assistant Fire Chief John Wood , who was part of the Urban Search and Rescue team sent to New York following nine over 11. Well , now we hear from San Diego resident and 9/11 survivor Judy Myers , who was working in lower Manhattan at the time of the attacks. She was one of many San Diegans who shared their 911 stories with KPBS. Judy , welcome to Midday Edition.
S4: Thank you.
S1: Well , you know , first , I want to thank you so much for coming on here and sharing your story today. You were living and working in new Jersey and New York back in 2001. Tell us a bit about what your life was like leading up to nine over 11.
S4: Well , my life was extremely busy because I was working as a commercial real estate paralegal for major New York City law firm. And I was doing a lot of traveling , a lot of overtime. It was just a busy time. And in fact , just before 911 happened , I had just come back from a business trip. You know , just got back to the office and started working again in the office when this happened. Yeah.
S3: Yeah.
S1: And then , you know , you went from a busy life constantly going to suddenly the , the world seemingly just coming to a halt and standing still on nine over 11.
S4: I was on a new Jersey transit train going to Hoboken and in the new Jersey Meadowlands. There was a commotion on the train , so everybody looked out the window and the we could see the World Trade Center was on fire and we did not know what had happened. People didn't really have cell phones then. We didn't know some people had radios and they said , a plane hit the World Trade Center. So it was like , well , that's pretty odd because it was a beautiful , clear day. There was no fog , no reason for anything like that. We finally got into Hoboken and the train , we couldn't go anywhere. We were just stopped because the Path trains had already been stopped. Now the Path trains are like a subway system that goes from Hoboken and a couple of other cities in new Jersey into the World Trade Center and other places in the city , like 33rd Street , other places in New York City. But I was headed towards the World Trade Center because that was my normal commute. Um , so we just were stuck out in an open air bus depot that's attached to the station. We couldn't see anything. We were very in the much in the dark. Then word came that a second plane had hit the second tower , and that's when we all were like , we have to get out of here. We're sitting ducks here. So new Jersey transit luckily , uh , loaded us back onto the trains , turned us to go home. But before we left , um , and after the two towers had fallen , people were loading onto the trains , and they were covered in dirt and ash and soot. And I just remember thinking , why are they so dirty ? We still didn't know what happened exactly. You know , people at home watching on TV , they knew more what was happening than us on the ground. And on my way home , I'm looking out the train window and I'm thinking , all these people are just going by their normal lives. The trucks making deliveries. And after this earth shattering event happened. Traffic on the streets was normal. It was very strange. Very , very strange.
S1: It sounds like there were so many emotions at one time. I mean , panic , confusion. Oh , and then a bit of relief. And that you were able to to get transportation out of there.
S4: Not much of anything except get us out of here. I was worried about my husband because his office was near the George Washington Bridge , and we all thought that was the next target. So I was able to call him and let him know. Go. Go turn on the TVs and turn on CNN. But after that , because the Verizon building had been destroyed , The cellular tower communication system went down , and calling on cell phones was now next to impossible for quite a while. I think we were mostly in shock. We just couldn't even wrap our heads around this. But I was very happy to get home. But. And then I turned the news on and there was just a week of watching television and basically crying the whole time because it just was so horrible. Um , we only relaxed once the airspace above the country was closed , and you could tell because there were no planes overhead. Yeah.
S3: Yeah.
S1: Well , and you actually commuted through the World Trade Center to get to your job at the time , thankfully , you know , you were not immediately impacted by that attack.
S4: Lower Manhattan had been closed except to emergency workers , communication workers , people like that who were essential for recovery. Um , it was horrible. The air was so foul with smoke and chemicals and it was just horrendous. The , uh , National Guard , uh , was patrolling everywhere with , you know , their rifles and stuff. There were cables , these huge cables laying on the sidewalk that provided communications to the businesses because the underground parts , I guess , were damaged. I had to commute by fishing boat , basically to my office down to pier 11. I could take the train down to Hoboken and take a fishing boat over to pier 11 , which was near my office. So that was really unbelievable. That was not fun.
S1: I can imagine , I mean , so the work didn't stop for you at all ? Oh , no.
S4: And , boy , that didn't go away for quite some time. But I had to go from building to building downtown and go to different meetings. And , you know , the trucks carrying the World Trade Center debris were rumbling along on Water Street , right where I would have to walk on their way to Staten Island , to the Fresh Kills landfill in Staten Island. And the trucks were uncovered. Um , so the debris was , you know , carrying all that pollution along with them. It was just horrible. It was like a war zone down in lower Manhattan. Yeah , absolutely. A war zone , you know , it.
S1: Was it was a war zone. And yet work still went on. Yes , yes.
S4: We're going to show them , you know , that we're Americans , patriotic Americans go back to work. In hindsight , I shouldn't have gone back to work. But , you know , we did what we had to do. We had jobs to do. We did not realize the extent of how bad the pollution was. So we didn't take any precautions. We didn't know any better. I wish that they had been upfront with us and , you know , told us to mask up. Who put some good masks on , but we would have have had to do that inside the buildings as well. I mean , people lived down there and went to school down there. They had pollution inside their homes. It was horrible for them. A lot of them had to get rid of stuff , you know , like soft goods , furniture , things like that. It was it was hard. But we did it. We went back to work. We're New Yorkers. I mean , you know , that's what you do. Indeed.
S1: Indeed. The city that never sleeps.
S4: That's right.
S3: Ah , but.
S1:
S4: And as you can hear , my voice isn't 100% right now. I just had a vocal cord procedure last week , so I'm recovering from that. But 18 years later , I lost my voice. It was misdiagnosed for a while , but I was ultimately diagnosed with lung cancer and I knew. I just knew that this lung cancer was from nine over 11. So I , um , I applied to the September 11th victim compensation Fund and the World Trade Center Health Program. Both programs , which I'd like to raise awareness for , are not just for first responders. They're for anyone who was in the exposure zone in lower Manhattan on nine over 11 or the eight months that followed. Um , you have to qualify. You have to produce a lot of proof. But I qualified , and I'm grateful that that program , um , has been available. And it's a future is never assured. But , um , I've had treatment for lung cancer , and I'm doing very well today. I'm very lucky to almost be five years survivor of lung cancer. And , well , I'm just very grateful. I'm one of the lucky ones. I say this all the time and I'm grateful to have survived that day. And I'm grateful for every day.
S1: Yeah , absolutely. My thoughts and well wishes are with you in that journey. Um , CBS news just reported that , you know , the number of people who died after volunteering , working or living near ground zero , uh , has surpassed the number of people killed in the attacks. What should people know about the illness from the disaster zone and the World Trade Center health program itself ? You just touched on a few things.
S4: Nine over 11 didn't stop on the day. Obviously , the first responders , they got sick and many died right away. But even today , 23 years later , people are still getting sick. A friend of mine was just diagnosed with cancer , one of the 69 cancers that is covered by the World Trade Center Health Program. My lung cancer is one of the 69 cancers. My advice to anybody who was there on nine , 11 , or in the exposure zone in the eight months that followed is to get scanned. Consider yourself at risk for something and apply to the programs , even if you're not sick today , because getting your proof can be a little tricky because people move away , they pass on. Businesses go out of business , so your proof can sometimes be hard to get. So the sooner you can get proof , the better. You don't have to use a law firm for this. I did , and , um , these are government programs that are funded by Congress , and we hope that they continue to fund the programs. And there were 300,000 people downtown , you know , in that period of time. Um , they were worried that there would be way more cases of lung cancer , but it's possible people just haven't gotten sick yet , you know ? Um , asbestos takes more than 20 years to make itself known , but there are 69 cancers. And the main one is non-melanoma skin cancer , prostate cancer , breast cancer , thyroid cancer , lung cancer. These are the top cancers , but there are many others. So , yeah. Um , I think you should get into your medical records that you are a survivor. A doctors may not fully comprehend what that means to your health , but I never thought to mention it to anybody. You know , it's just I lived my life , I went on , I moved on , I was fine , I didn't feel sick until one day I did.
S3: So yeah. Oh my gosh.
S4: And there's also help with mental health issues too. I mean , I didn't experience the trauma of the people who were present. I didn't experience that same trauma , but that trauma , it's difficult for a lot of people still to this day , and especially as the anniversary rolls around every year.
S1: Well , I mean , you know , you offer some great advice to people who are survivors. Like , I would imagine that you probably live with a decent amount of anxiety around what else could happen with your health.
S4: I try not to adopt the what if. What's going to happen next ? Uh , viewpoint , I just I am doing well. I'm cancer free right now. I've been cancer free for a couple of years , and I just try to live one day at a time. I try not to dwell on what if in the future. That's my way of coping. But a lot of people with cancer and other diseases can't do that. And I certainly understand it. It's it's difficult. Yeah.
S3: Yeah. Well , what is.
S1:
S4: The day was so beautiful that the just in a few minutes , you know , your world can end. And I think that's something that I've taken , you know , to live for today. Live now. Because you can't predict what's going to happen in a half an hour , or basically just live and try to live a good life and you just can't predict anything that's going to happen. I should have died that day. I should have , and I'm so happy I didn't I ? I've gotten 23 extra years so far , so very grateful. Live.
S3: Live.
S1: Now that is some great advice. I've been speaking with San Diego resident and nine over 11 survivor Judy Myers. Judy , thank you so much for joining us and sharing your experience.
S4: Thanks , Jade. It's been a pleasure.
S1: Still ahead , we'll hear how the war on terror started and the lessons learned.
S5: So the government of Tony Blair plagiarized my research on the 91 Gulf War , but hid the fact that it was a historical piece and more or less used it to justify the invasion in 2003.
S1: Hear more when KPBS Midday Edition returns. Welcome back to KPBS midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman. You just heard firsthand accounts from San Diegans about how 911 impacted their lives back in 2001 , and still to this day , 23 years later. Well , now we zoom out and take a look at the lessons learned from that day and the aftermath of the war on terror , including U.S. foreign policy. Here to help us better understand this complex topic is Ibrahim Al Amarachi. He's an associate professor of Middle East history at Cal State University , San Marcos. Professor , welcome back to Midday Edition.
S5: Thank you.
S1: Tell us a little bit about your background and how you ended up teaching Middle East history.
S5: Um , Iraqi American , but I never grew up in Iraq , and learning about this country as a child through books made me realize that I wanted to teach about the country that I , uh , was fascinated by , that I had a connection to. And that put me on a journey of studying Iraq's history from Babylon to Saddam Hussein. Wow.
S1: Wow. It's a long history. It is. Well , your scholarship has ties to the origins of the war on terror.
S5: In other words , the speech acts said by the politicians creates the policy. And the war on terror wasn't a war on al-Qaida. It was so broad that it eventually brought in the nation. I come from originally Iraq. In other words , what began as an attack launched by al-Qaida resulted in an invasion and an attempt to rebuild the nation of Iraq.
S1: Your Oxford thesis on the government in Iraq was plagiarized by the British government , correct ? Correct.
S5: So on this journey to learn about the country I came from , I ended up writing a thesis on the 1991 Gulf War , because when Iraq was in the occupation of Kuwait , they left behind a lot of documents when they retreated. And so I was really becoming an expert on Saddam Hussein's security services. Now , of course , with a war on terror , the US was trying to link Iraq with Al-Qaeda in a way to finish the business that was never completed in 1991 that is overthrowing Saddam Hussein. And so that's how I personally became involved in an episode in this greater war on terror.
S1:
S5: They handed it to US Secretary of State Colin Powell , who took that document in front of the United Nations in order to get a UN approval of the invasion of Iraq. Powell did apologize , but for the British government , it took a parliamentary inquiry before I got an official apology. And Tony Blair , himself the prime minister of Britain , never directly apologized to me. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. So your work was used to justify this , the engagement in this war. But your thesis , it was. It was misinterpreted in that way. Correct. Precisely.
S5: Precisely. So not only was my work plagiarized , but then keywords were changed to say that Saddam Hussein's Iraq supported terrorist groups , where I had written that they had supported opposition groups to hostile regimes. So by changing the word to terrorist groups , this is the securitization of terrorism. They took Iraq and linked it vaguely to Al-Qaeda. And 911 , thus being part of this campaign to sell an invasion of Iraq as part of the greater war on terror. Hmm.
S3: Hmm. Do you think.
S1:
S5: So it was a deliberate attempt to , uh , get the people , the American public , the British audience , confused and just assumed there was a connection. Mhm.
S3: Mhm.
S1: Well , you mentioned 911. It has been 23 years since the terrorist attack. Take me back to that day.
S5: As a historian , I had been studying this group. On that day , what I had saw was basically not a terrorist group that rejects the West or as a reaction to the West. I saw al-Qaida become a product of the West and that the nine over 11 attacks , if you think about it , you know , terrorism is as only terrorizes when the mainstream media does the terrorizing on behalf of the terrorist group. Most kids that I teach weren't even born on 911 , yet they've seen the horrific events. And so on that day , when I remember sitting glued in front of the TV , I thought most of the footage of the first tower was accidental , but think all the cameras were situated on the first tower and then you have almost a choreographed event 17 minutes later , while all the news cameras are fixated on the first tower , the plane hits the second tower. And that's when I realized terrorism is a choreographed spectacle for the mass media. For the 24 hour news cycle , al-Qaida used the nature of the West and its fascination with disasters to terrorize it. It was a vicious circle that al-Qaida initiated , where the terrorizing wasn't just on that day of September 11th. It continues to terrorize more than two decades after.
S1:
S5: There will be a need for vengeance , revenge , and need to act out , and that the US government would feel pressure to act out , but there would never be an understanding of the historical root causes that led to that act of terrorism. It's too sophisticated for , you know , a 24 hour news cycle to go back into the past and say , under what conditions ? What were the events that led to the birth of al-Qaida in the first place ? Yeah.
S3:
S1: Can you sum it up in 2.5 minutes ? Exactly.
S5: I could it was the Cold War , the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. A group of Muslim volunteers desiring to fight the Soviets and then , after defeating the Soviets , realized the US was now the only power that was a threat because it had used Saudi Arabia as a base to attack Iraq. And basically it was a lesson when either the Soviet Union or the US interfered in the Muslim world , there would be some kind of backlash , even if it took decades in the making.
S1:
S5: But what emerged was , in fact conventional military invasions of Afghanistan , which not only failed to destroy the terrorist group , but found the US trying to rebuild an entire nation , which ultimately failed two decades later , and then got sidetracked with a secondary military invasion of Iraq , which not only had no connection to terrorism , but created the chaotic space for an even more violent terrorist group to emerge the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. What was supposed to be a reaction to terrorism more than two decades later , has witnessed a world with even more diffuse terrorist groups , even though Osama bin laden is dead. Neither Al-Qaeda nor its offshoot ISIS are entirely dismantled.
S1: Well , 911 was a turning point for U.S. foreign policy in many ways. What did it change about the way we approach wars.
S6: Number one.
S5: It created an aversion to putting boots on the ground. Both Afghanistan and Iraq were decades long. Experiments demonstrating a massive deployment of military force doesn't necessarily achieve political outcomes. You can achieve a military victory , but it is much harder to create viable states after the military action. And I think that's a lesson learned in Afghanistan and Iraq. So that you saw the US hesitant to put boots on the ground in Libya in 2011 and not giving even air support to the war in Syria , that when ISIS emerged , the US bombed from the air but had very few boots on the ground. It was mostly local emissions doing the fighting. So I think that's the ultimate lesson was an American aversion to massive ground deployments in foreign theaters.
S1: So 23 years later , where does the U.S. stand in terms of foreign policy and the war on terror ? It's been called the new Cold War.
S5: Instead of specifically saying a war on al-Qaida , al-Qaida's an organization you could target it's leadership. A war on terror , by definition , would have no specific end date. How do you defeat a tactic of violence ? There is no leader of terrorism that will sign a piece of paper saying , I surrender. You have won. And that was the ultimate mistake that here we are in 2024. Not only does Al-Qaeda exist , ISIS still exist. And this is also the other thing. We still do not know. What are the ramifications of America's involvement in the current conflict in Gaza ? Uh , the US deployed and fought Iraq in 1991. Bin laden retaliated for that exactly a decade later , in 2001 , so that by the US , by taking a side in a middle eastern conflict , I would argue , is also opening itself up for further retaliation. Man.
S3: Man.
S1: While you grew up on the East Coast , you've been in San Diego for several decades now. The area is home to one of the largest Iraqi and Afghan populations in the U.S. there's also a large military presence here. How is the war on terror impacting people here ? And what's been the what's the lasting impact that you see ? Sure.
S5: A good number of Iraqis and Afghans are in San Diego because of the war on terror. The 2003 invasion created an influx of Iraqis that came here after 2003. Same with the instability in Afghanistan after 2001. One. So you have a lot of Iraqis in Afghans fleeing instability , conflict and terror in their home countries. But then again , I would argue that a good number of Americans who deployed there are also dealing with , you know , terror and trauma that they witnessed. So on one level , I see it as kind of a tragedy that in San Diego , you have a microcosm of the ramifications of the war on terror. But to this very day , it's been my dream to have a course specifically devoted to Iraq and Afghanistan that would bring together in a single room Iraqis , Afghans and the Americans , whether if they were deployed or the kids of those who were deployed to understand that this conflict far away is very much a conflict that is still very local. It's still a conflict within people's psyches and memories and traumas that need some kind of space to be discussed. Yeah.
S3: Well , you.
S1: Mentioned this course about the conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan.
S6:
S5: Familiar with courses offered in the San Diego area , and as far as I know , there isn't a standalone course on terrorism offered in the San Diego area. There's not a standalone course on terrorism and the media. I would love to teach both of those courses. There is not a single standalone course on the politics or history of Iraq and Afghanistan , or what we could call the last two decades of the war on terror. We might have courses on Vietnam at , let's say , San Diego State , for example. But I think what needs to occur are dedicated courses on the war on terror , because , after all , even though officially we might like to think the war is over. Not really. These are subjects still salient and relevant , you know , more than two decades after nine over 11.
S3: Yeah , so very interesting.
S1: I've been speaking with Ibrahim Al Amarachi , associate professor of Middle East history at Cal State University , San Marcos. Professor Al Mariachi , thank you so much for joining us.
S5: My pleasure.
S1: That's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
