S1: It's Midday edition on KPBS today. How would the Protect Act change what police in San Diego can and cannot do ? Join us for a conversation that will keep you informed , inspired , and make you think you. Why local law enforcement groups oppose the Protect Act. It seeks to prohibit , protect stops and consent searches that give officers the power to stop , interrogate and investigate people at their discretion. What impact pretext stops have on reducing crime and the research , What it actually shows about racial disparities in traffic stops in San Diego ? That's ahead on Midday Edition. Racial and social disparities in San Diego. Policing have been well documented over the years. Studies show that black , Latino and Pacific Islanders are more likely than white people to be stopped , searched and experienced use of force. Numbers indicate that police treat folks they think have mental disabilities differently than those who do not. And the same goes for people the police identify as LGBTQ. So a coalition of San Diegans have come up with what they hope is a solution. It's called the Protect Act , or preventing overpolicing through equitable community treatment. We'll hear more specifics coming up. But one thing it would do is eliminate stops based on , quote , reasonable suspicion and require probable cause to pull someone over. Not everyone supports this change. Leaders in San Diego law enforcement call it radical. We wanted to better understand what's being proposed and what's at stake. So joining me is Christie Love Hill. She is advocacy and legal director with the ACLU of San Diego. And Imperial County's Megan Welsh is an associate professor in the School of Public Affairs at SDSU. She has co-authored studies on San Diego Traffic Stop data through the Lens of race and the shallow. Wilson , who was president of the local NAACP and an attorney. Glad to have you all with us. We also asked representatives from the San Diego Police Department , the San Diego Police Officers Association and the San Diego Black Police Officers Association to join this conversation. No one was available , but we recently spoke with Jared Wilson , president of the Police Officers Association , about the Protect Act. And we'll hear parts of that interview during our conversation. The Protect Act is focused on traffic stops that target people of color. I'm going to play a recording of a traffic stop that happened in San Diego in 2016. Genevieve Jones , right. Who is a black San Diego attorney , was pulled over by San Diego police on her way home from Mission Beach. She says at least eight officers were at the scene with guns drawn and K-9 dogs out. They eventually told her that when they ran her license plate , her car came back stolen. It was not. The interaction went on for 15 minutes. We edited it down. So take a listen and a warning to listeners , you may find some parts disturbing. Okay.
S2: Okay. Why am I being pulled over ? Why am I. Why am I being pulled over ? Okay.
UU: Yeah. Hi. Okay.
S2: Okay.
UU: Keep your hands up. This way. Come on back. Walk backwards. I got to walk back. Three.
S3: Step two.
S2: Let's take three steps. This is why I prayed the entire time. That man followed me all the way from the beach to right here on Market Street by my house.
UU: The whole time I prayed.
S2: I wouldn't end up like Sandra. Bland.
UU: Bland. Lord , thank you.
S2: For being my protection.
S1: And you can hear the commotion and how she feared for her life. After about 15 minutes , police released Jones. Right. Who said there was a mix up with the DMV that would have probably been resolved with an officer just asking for her license and registration. So I want to ask the panel , when you hear that interaction , what are your thoughts ? Kristi , I'll start with you.
S4: Trauma comes to mind and that there is this different standard for how police engage with community members from the black community , from the Latino community , from the LGBTQ plus community. And this stop illustrates that and that and about the inherent dangers right , in police stops. And we know that the data supports that many stops do and and you know , when they involve black and brown folks folks being released without a citation , which is what happened in this case.
S1:
S5:
S6: Deeply concerning and in my mind , these kinds of interactions. Are preventable. And the Protect Act would seek to minimize some of these encounters.
S1:
S7:
S8: And because I worked with the public defender's office , I knew about the incident. Never heard the encounter. But I have brothers. Bit old nephew. About their brother in law and they've all gone to this up a little bit upset that I'll be okay , but it's wrong. We know it's wrong. And I can tell you a lot of anecdotes and stories , but it's been happening. And it didn't just start , you know , a couple of years ago , 16 , 19 , we were first enslaved and it still hasn't stopped. Yeah.
S9: Yeah. Megan , you've.
S1: Done the research on this.
S6: So pretext stops are typically used by police officers when they're looking to find bigger crimes. So in our data , which we where we unpacked and analyzed two years of DPD stop data , we found pretty significant racial disparities in what happens to drivers after they get pulled over. And then we also spoke with officers. We interviewed more than 50 active SPD officers back in 2016. And we asked them what are kind of the circumstances or what are you thinking about when you are engaging in pretext stops ? And very consistently , officers described to us a practice of what they call criminal profiling , which they then describe in the same breath as going hunting or fishing for bigger crimes. But unfortunately , the data really don't bear out in terms of showing the crime prevention or investigation utility of these stops. So , for example , in our traffic stop study that we conducted , where we analyzed all stops conducted by the San Diego Police Department for 2014 and 2015 , we analyzed nearly 260,000 stops. And of those 260,000 stops , only 1.3% of them resulted in an arrest. And as you mentioned in the introduction , Jade , there's a distinction here between reasonable suspicion and probable cause. Officers must have probable cause to arrest someone. And that is kind of that higher level of belief or evidence that criminal activity is afoot or is about to happen. And what the protect ordinance would do is require officers to have that higher level of suspicion. And this is so critical because officers have lots of discretion in how they look for reasonable suspicion to conduct these stops.
S1: So really , you know , these these pretext stops , they don't lead to stopping crime. No.
S10: No.
S6: And it's not only our study that says that there are decades of really solid empirical research that point us in this direction and that confirm that these pretext stops do not have that crime prevention utility that officers often claim they do.
S1: So , Christy , you're advocating for something called the Protect Act in response to this. Can you explain what that is exactly ? Yeah.
S4: Protect The Protect Ordinance stands for preventing overpolicing through equitable community treatment. And protect would raise the standard for police stops from reasonable suspicion to probable cause , providing what we hope are stronger protections for people's rights than currently exist. It seeks to prohibit , protect , stops and consent searches that give officers the power to stop , interrogate and investigate people at their discretion. It would also end stop solely based on equipment violations , because we know that these types of stops can lead to more lethal encounters to use of force being used. And it would also require officers to explain the reasons for a stop and to document them in detail. And so that so protect is is a reasonable , real solution to the different standard of policing we're seeing that's taking place in various communities of color in in San Diego.
S9: And , you know , earlier.
S1: We spoke with Jared Wilson , PA president. This is what he had to say about the Protect Act.
S11: The Protect Act is the most radical Abolish the police legislation proposed at a local level in America today. It's more radical than legislation that was done in Philadelphia , which has had an impact on policing. It's more radical than what was done in the state of Washington , which has been partially rolled back already. And it would really tie the hands of our officers behind their backs.
S9: Certainly Chawla is protected radical , particularly when you compare it to police reforms across the country.
S8: Of course , it's not radical and they know it's not radical , but their union and I'm for unions with the police unions or police officers association , whatever you want to call them , they have to protect their officers. I think taxpayers realise we don't do it. You're going to have to pay. And who pays ? Taxpayers.
S4: And just to add to that , because Charlie is exactly right , the police have been engaging in a misinformation campaign , spreading lies about protect. And we know that the only extreme thing happening in San Diego is it's the way that SCPD is policing the public. And the data shows that Protect is seeking to raise the standard so that when police are stopping someone , it's because they have concrete reasons to believe that a crime has occurred , is about to occur or is occurring. That is not extreme. It is seeking to ensure that police are not engaging in stops and asking you questions beyond the reason for that , stop getting to pretext stops and ending stops for equipment violations. The only thing extreme taking place is the way that police are policing in our communities.
S8: Now let's get it clear. Our communities , all communities are not treated the same. I can do stuff and I can name the neighborhoods. I wouldn't be stopped and my neighborhood , I might be stopped. So. It's not equal. And that's what the problem is. And the police don't have a problem. Someone messed out of calling 911. They're trained. But the problem is who's trade , what they do and race and systemic. And everyone's not treated the same. And that's what the problem is.
S1: We're talking about the Protect Act. You just heard from Lee Wilson , former president of the San Diego NAACP and former public defender who worked in the San Diego County Public Defender's office for 24 years. Also with me is Kristie Love Hill. She is an advocacy and legal director with the ACLU of San Diego and Imperial Counties. And Meghan Welsh is an associate professor at the School of Public Affairs at SDSU. She has co-authored studies on San Diego Traffic Stop Data Through the Lens of Race. We asked representatives from the San Diego Police Department , the San Diego Police Officers Association and the San Diego Black Police Officers Association to join this conversation. No one was able to join us , but we've been hearing tape from my recent conversation with Jared Wilson , president of the Police Officers Association , about the Protect Act. We'd like to hear your thoughts on the Protect Act. Give us a call at (619) 452-0228. Leave a message or you can email us at midday at KPBS. Org. Coming up , we'll hear what research from SDSU shows about the difference between how white and black people are treated during traffic stops in San Diego.
S6: When we isolate and control for every other variable , the deciding factor.
S5: About whether you are asked.
S6: To get out of your.
S5: Car and are subject to a field interview , that one predictor variable is race.
S1: You're listening to KPBS Midday Edition. Welcome back to Midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman. Today we're talking about an ordinance that's expected to be considered this year by the San Diego City Council. It's called the Protect Act and it aims to correct the disparities between how white , black and brown people are treated by San Diego police. These disparities are well documented by multiple studies. It is opposed , though , by the San Diego Police Officers Association. Here with me is Kristy Love Hill , an advocacy and legal director of the ACLU of San Diego and Imperial County's Megan Welch , an SDSU associate professor who has co-authored studies on San Diego Traffic Stop Data through the Lens of race , and attorney Lee Charlie Wilson , who was a public defender in San Diego for 24 years and former president of the NAACP , A representative from the police department , was not able to join us for this discussion. But we recently spoke to the president of the San Diego Police Officers Association , Jared Wilson. So you'll hear from him during our discussion. Two. So we've talked about , you know.
S9: Pretext stops and reasonable suspicion.
S1: Versus probable cause.
S9: I want.
S1: You to listen to the exchange I had with Wilson.
S9: About that. I mean , the main difference here seems to be between probable cause and reasonable suspicion to a civilian like me.
S1: That sounds like a reasonable change.
S11: Now , probable cause makes it so. We have to know that a crime is committed. So , for example , it's 85 degrees out on a summer afternoon in San Diego. Police officers driving by military police officers drive by a 7-Eleven , and they see someone with a ski mask on going inside the store. Reasonable person could believe that person is going in to rob the store. Now. They haven't done it yet and the officer doesn't know that they robbed the store. It's just a suspicion that they have under the Protect Act and probable cause they would need to watch them rob that store to be able to make a detention. It's just it's radical.
S9: Well , I mean , you can't arrest someone who is.
S1: About to who you suspect is about to.
S9: Commit a crime. Right.
S11: Will you be able to detain and investigate ? And if the investigation showed that they were conspiring to commit a robbery or were attempting to commit a robbery , you would be able to arrest them for attempted robbery as they walked into that store , potentially , and you'd prevent a violent crime from occurring.
S9: What might your.
S1: Suspicions be.
S9:
S11:
S9:
S11:
S9:
S12: Language.
S8: Language. Right. But how many times does that happen ? Normally , it's a person of color walking down the street and , oh , why are this neighborhood ? Why are you here ? That's not really suspicion. I understand probable cause. You're right to arrest. Detain. But how many times has someone in 80 ? I think he said , you know , the weather with a ski mask on and there might be a crime , but you can't connect people there. You don't know why zone maybe you know , they have some other other issue. So that was not a good example for him And you know used to be a public defender for 24 years. That's not enough. I could file a motion at a moment.
S9: Megan , I see you over there.
S6:
S5: Officers have very.
S6: Wide discretion in terms of how they think about conducting traffic. Stops.
S5: Stops. Right. We've talked about.
S6: The fact that.
S5: As Lee.
S6: Just mentioned , police officers will use a practice called , quote unquote , race out of place. So we've had folks , officers that we interviewed literally tell us , you know , down here in the Southern district , if I saw two white people walking down the street , I'd probably stop them. We've also had officers tell us , you know , if a car looks too nice for a neighborhood or not nice enough , if there are multiple people in the car , if there are certain bumper stickers or decals on the car , officers , explain that. The vehicle traffic. Code.
S5: Code.
S6: Book is four inches thick , full of ways that they can decide to stop a motorist. I think the example that the police officers union gave is concerning because the implication there is or what they want us to think based on that example , is that if protect is passed , you know that crime rates will go up , that police officers hands will be tied when actual crime is afoot , and that is simply not accurate. So if an officer sees a motorist speeding , making an illegal U-turn , swerving in and out of lanes under protect , they will still be able to effect a stop because that helps them meet probable cause. So as Lee mentioned , this is not going to prevent officers from being able to respond when actual crime is occurring. And I think that's the important point here.
S9: I asked Jared Wilson , who is president of the San Diego Police Officers Association , about.
S1: The disparities you touched.
S9: On earlier , the racial disparities there.
S1: I want you to listen to the exchange I had with.
S9: Wilson about that.
S11: I mean , there's different socioeconomic problems throughout our society. There are , unfortunately , gun violence problems more prominent in communities south of the eight than they are north of the eight. And those are realities we need to tackle as a society as a whole. But limiting police enforcement is not the answer to that.
S9: So am I to understand from your reasoning as to.
S1: Why these disparities exist , that crime.
S9:
S11: There's a huge amount of issues , which is why some crime is prevalent in other communities and it's such a complicated situation that one thing is not going to fix the problem.
S9: Well , you say there are.
S1: A number of factors as to why.
S9: The disparities. Exist.
S1: Exist. So let's talk about.
S9: That a bit more and talk about.
S1: What you see as a solution. Um.
S13: Um.
S11: Well , I mean , like I said , more so. Gang activity occurs in different communities more than others , right ? So after school programs are helpful for those type of situations. You know , there's been a program called those Shots fired in southeast San Diego , The Police Officers Association absolutely in favor of a variety of different programs to prevent violence in the future. But that's also in conjunction with doing police work and doing investigations and holding those accountable who commit the violations so that we can take illegal firearms and illegal contraband off the streets.
S9:
S6: Honestly , I'm speechless at what they just said. Um.
S14: Um.
S5: I think that those remarks really reveal a lot. About how our local police.
S6: Agency views our communities.
S5: And it reveals very little. That's good. Um.
S14: Um.
S5: I heard a lot of blaming of our. Communities.
S6: Communities.
S5: And I heard zero ownership or.
S6: Taking responsibility.
S5: For policing. Activity.
S6: Activity.
S5: And behavior. And I would just like to take a moment here to mention that. As a researcher , I've been doing work on.
S6: This topic.
S5: For well over a decade and for eight years.
S6: Here in San Diego. And during my time.
S5: Here in San Diego , I have had the opportunity to present this.
S6: Research in front of our city council. And I have been disappointed.
S5: At every. Turn.
S6: Turn.
S5: At the.
S6: Lack of responsibility that our police department.
S5: Takes around these issues. So when we did our traffic stop study , we that was a study.
S6: That was paid for by the city of San Diego.
S5: They paid.
S6: SDSU $60,000.
S5: For us to do that two year multi method analysis. And at the end of that.
S6: Study we presented our findings , which included sustained disparities in.
S5: What happens. To.
S6: To.
S5: Drivers based.
S6: On race.
S5: After they are stopped by the police , with black drivers.
S6: Experiencing double the amount of scrutiny that white drivers. Receive.
S5: Receive. Right.
S6: We presented these findings to the city council , then chief of police Shellie Zimmerman , was there to respond and was asked to respond. And all she could do. She could not acknowledge any of the disparities that we found racial disparities in our report. All she could do was repeatedly say every human being has bias.
S5: And our police department.
S6: Receives implicit bias training. There was no.
S5: Acknowledgement of racial disparities.
S6: And there continues to be.
S5: No acknowledgement.
S6: By our police department or our city leadership.
S5: That decades of research here.
S6: And across the US have demonstrated that there is.
S5: A systemic pattern of racial.
S6: Discrimination that. Happens.
S5: Happens.
S6: In police encounters here in San Diego and in many cities across the US.
S9: And to clarify , what does your research say about.
S1:
S9:
S6:
S5: Um , you know , we so we.
S6: Did a bunch of different statistical analyses of the traffic stops. We looked. At.
S5: At.
S6: One of the most strongest.
S5: And most.
S6: Disturbing yet consistent finding is what happens to.
S5: Drivers after they are pulled over.
S6: And when we isolate and control.
S5: For every other variable , you know , what.
S6:
S5:
S6:
S5: About whether you.
S6: Are asked to to make yourself subject to a.
S5: Search , whether you are.
S6: Asked to get out of your car and our subject to a field interview or what police officers call curbing. That one predictor. Variable.
S5: Variable.
S6: Is race. Okay. And so we see that black. Drivers.
S5: Drivers.
S6: Are subject to a surge in San Diego based on our data. Twice as much as white drivers. And then we also.
S5: See that black drivers , when searched.
S6: Have a lower hit rate. And the hit rate is the rate at which officers find contraband , drugs , guns , other things that they're looking for. Right. We consistently see that black.
S5: Drivers have a lower hit rate , yet they are in more scrutiny.
S6: As imposed upon them.
S9: You know , in talking with Jared , he.
S1: Put your research.
S9: Into question , comparing it to Portland where he said they don't collect data based on stops versus population. Here's what he had to say. And you cited what they're doing in Portland.
S11: And when you look at it just based on are we stopping people based on the community ? I don't think it's a fair representation to base that data as the community as a whole. We're not stopping people just because they're members of the community. We're stopping people because of different offenses and reasonable suspicion that might be going on and we might be observing.
S9: And so what's your reaction ? That made.
S5: No sense. I don't I honestly don't understand what he was saying there.
S6:
S4: The the police have not met a study that they like. If it's a study that they commissioned , they find a way to undermine it. And that's what Jared's doing. Right ? In addition to the SDSU study in 2021 , the San Diego Police Department contracted with the Center for Policing Equity and this and also known as the Center for Policing Equity found that after accounting for the reasons , right. And Jared alluded to some of these that the police normally use for why there are such high stop rates of black people after accounting for crime , poverty and local demographics , they still found that black people were over four times as likely to be stopped than white people and had force used on them 4.6 times more often than white people. The reason Jared is saying things like this is because he's misleading the public like that. That is it. He's misleading the public to preserve the status quo and is using fear based tactics. There is a reason why he is using coded words like gangs and talking about guns. He's trying to scare people. And we believe that the communities in San Diego are better than that. And we'll listen to the facts. We'll listen to the personal testimonies of people that have been victims of bias policing here in the region and will not fall for these misinformation tactics that he is not even willing to come on and defend today. They run from the data.
S1: We're talking about the Protect Act. You just heard from Kristie Love Hill. She is an advocacy and legal director with the ACLU of San Diego and Imperial Counties. Also with us , Megan Welch , an associate professor in the School of Public Affairs at SDSU. She's co-authored numerous studies on San Diego Traffic Stop Data Through the Lens of Race. And Leisha Wilson , former president of the San Diego NAACP , and an attorney. We asked representatives again from the San Diego Police Department , the San Diego Police Officers Association and the San Diego Black Police Officers Association to join this conversation. No one was able to join us , but we've been hearing portions of my recent conversation with Jared Wilson , president of the Police Officers Association , about the Protect Act. We'd like to hear your thoughts on the Protect Act.
S9: Give us a call at (619) 452-0228.
S1: You can leave a message or you can email us at midday at pbs.org. Coming up , the police deny racial profiling happens in San Diego , but the numbers tell a very different story.
S4: Whatever report you want to look back to over the last 20 years , they have all found that there are disparities that cannot be explained for other reasons outside of race and other and other factors related to identity.
S1: You're listening to KPBS Midday Edition. Welcome back to Midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman. Today we're talking about the Protect Act. It's an ordinance being proposed by a coalition of local groups. Its goal is to correct the disparities between how white and black and brown people are treated by San Diego police. These disparities are well documented by multiple studies. The Protect Act is opposed by the San Diego Police Officers Association. It is currently under legal review and is expected to be considered by the San Diego City Council this year. Here with me are Kristie Love Hill , advocacy and legal director of the ACLU of San Diego and Imperial County's Megan Welsh , an SDSU associate professor who has co-authored studies on San Diego Traffic Stop data through the Lens of race , and attorney Lee Chawla Wilson , who was a public defender in San Diego for 24 years and former president of the San Diego NAACP. A representative from the police department , was not able to join us for this discussion. But we are playing portions of an interview I did recently with Jared Wilson , the president of the San Diego Police Officers Association.
S9: Rachel , you've handled a lot of racial profiling cases here in San Diego.
S1: Data suggests it's an issue.
S12: And I just wonder when.
S8: First couple of years of being a public defender and a client , I'm reading the paper , you know , the police report.
S12: And he ran the police. And I said. He goes , I didn't do anything. I said , Why didn't you run for a place ? Then he goes , Because I didn't want to.
S8: Beat down and I didn't. Understand.
S12: Understand. It.
S8: It.
S12: There is a beard that goes both ways , but the problem is the police are.
S8: Trained , my clients are , and they know they.
S12: Need to run. But unfortunately , too , people , you know , too many people are being killed and stuff. I don't know what the solution is.
S8: And I understand because I was like legal advisor standing a black police officer station.
S12: And , you know , I don't know what it is , but I try to.
S8: Work with it. But one , police officers are trained. They are trained to deal with people. The common citizen. But citizens are trained with that and no wonder they run , because.
S12: It is true. How many.
S8: Dead bodies do.
S12:
S9:
S11: Racial profiling is against the state law and the state of California. It's immoral , it's unethical , and we discipline officers heavily to the point of termination if that type of conduct is discovered. The Police Officers Association is in favor of additional training. We're in favor of. Building trust with the communities , which we can't really do because our staffing is so bad right now and our response times are so horrible. That type of behavior is not tolerated here.
S9: So in that clip , he mentioned police training and denied the existence of racial profiling despite the data. But do you all think Spd's overall law enforcement strategy contributes.
S1:
S9:
S5: I mean , I can just.
S6: Speak briefly to this from our.
S5: Research , Jade , from the interviews we did with active SDP officers. It was very clear.
S6: To us.
S5: That they are trained around this term criminal. Profiling.
S6: Profiling. They don't call it racial profiling , as the representative said. They don't do that. Right. But when we interview officers. They speak in , as Kristi said , coded language that is very racialized. They talk about going hunting. And.
S5: And.
S6: Fishing for bad guys. They talk about using an approach that we can basically call race out of place. They explicitly said they profile people based on their race.
S5: And what they expect the race.
S6: Racial composition of the community is. So. The San Diego Police Department engages in racial profiling. They don't call it that , but objective data from research , study after research study indicates that racial profiling happens.
S5: And protect is one way.
S6: That we can curtail some of that racial profiling behavior. Christie.
S9: Christie.
S4: The data supports it. Decades of community stories support that. Racial profiling is happening in San Diego , and I think it's important that we can't lose sight of the origins of policing. Policing is rooted in , um , slavery. The first police forces were slave patrols created to control enslaved black people. So given its origin story , it's no surprise that those roots show up today in ways that are harming black , Latino and other communities of color. And the data showed us in so many ways , whether it's through stops , through searches. And , you know , a lot of the conversations can go through lethal encounters , But it's these everyday encounters that are happening that are just as important , that are creating trauma. And communities , whether you're in a car , whether you're walking , whether you're on a bike , we know that there is a different standard of policing happening and the stops , searches , use of force , whatever way you want to slice the data , whatever report you want to look back to. Over the last 20 years , they have all found that there are disparities that cannot be explained for other reasons outside of race and other and other factors related to identity. So for the Police Officers Association and other officers to say that racial profiling is not taking place , it's offensive. There's too much data , too many stories to show otherwise.
S9: Here's more of what the president had to say. Do you think , though , that detaining someone who.
S1: You've deemed as suspicious based off of.
S9:
S11: You could suspect someone have committed a crime , but maybe they didn't necessarily do it. And it needs further investigation. But you don't have the probable cause ability. Probable cause is what's needed to make an arrest , not necessarily detention. And to make that level would impact our ability to policing incredibly severely.
S9: I guess , and without a sort of standard for what is suspicious. Do you think , though , that that biases could creep into that ? And maybe cause disparities.
S11: No , I don't see how that could. I. We would never be able to prove that. Because you're asking what's in someone's heart. So. I couldn't say that one way or the other. Ultimately , we don't tolerate that behavior. We teach against it constantly in our police academies , and we don't want to see that. So. I would hope not.
S9:
S4: We can't train our way out of racist policing. The police budget has grown every year for the last ten years. It's not a funding problem. It is a fundamental systems and structures problem. And so that is what protects seeking to address the actual practices. It's not about training , as the representative has has stated. They have been receiving training all of these years and yet the disparities persist. So we can't keep throwing money and expecting a different result. We can't send them to a training for a couple of hours and expect a different result. We have to change the activities and that's what Cpat is advocating for with the Protect ordinance.
S6: Megan You know , some recent studies of.
S5: Implicit bias training and policing have suggested that it might be more effective for changing how people think about these issues than their behavior. So I concur with Christie.
S6: That the time for. Throwing.
S5: Throwing.
S6: More training.
S5: At issues related to police. Racial.
S6: Racial.
S5: Profiling is over. We have tried that. It has failed. Decades of data point to the fact.
S6: That racial.
S5: Profiling continues to happen here in San Diego , and we need to think more creatively about how to.
S6: Actually solve this issue because we have not solved it.
S9: And , you know , despite all of the data that's available.
S1: Police believe.
S9: Protect will tie their hands.
S12:
S8: Everything's challenged in the court when people don't want to make change. Open change and be what it is. But I think it still should go forward. And let's see what the courts say. But everyone challenges everything. You don't like it , you lose , you foul people. But I'm telling the truth. It's never going to be fixed because the racism is systemic. It is had metastasized , even though people think , Oh , no , it's good. But I've been around here long enough , hasn't changed. Not my parents , grandparents. But all we can do is make it effort. I don't think it's going to be in my lifetime , but all we can do is try and sort of thing throwing up your hands. Say , No , it's not. That'll work. Kristie.
S9: Kristie.
S4: And we are lucky to have a champion and council president , Pro Tem Monica montgomery Stepp , who is is committed to introducing , protect and having it have its day at at city council. We deserve. People deserve to go about their daily activities , free from discrimination , harassment and intimidation , and to be treated fairly and with with dignity without respect to their race identity , zip code or personal background. And this goes and this police officers need to do this. And this is not a value that they have been showing to to share.
S5: Protect is a common sense set of actual police.
S6: Reforms that.
S5: We can and should pass in San Diego. As a researcher , the data that I have collected over the past eight years point to the need for this kind of structural police reform.
S9: All right. An interesting conversation. I'd like to thank our panelist , Kristie Love Hill.
S1: She is an advocacy and.
S9: Legal director with the.
S1: ACLU of San Diego and Imperial Counties. Megan Welsh is an associate professor in the School of Public Affairs at SDSU. She has co-authored studies on San Diego Traffic Stop Data Through the.
S9: Lens of. Race.
S1: Race.
S9: And Lee Wilson , former.
S1: NAACP president and attorney.
S9: Thank you all.
S6: Thank you.
S4: Thank you.
S1: We'd like to hear your thoughts on the Protect Act. Give us a call at (619) 452-0228. Leave a message or you can email us at midday at pbs.org.
S9: Also tomorrow , we'll be talking about.
S1: Rock paintings by ancient indigenous people in the rugged canyons of Baja California. I'm Jade Hindman. Thanks for listening.
