S1: It's time for Midday Edition on KPBS. Neither parenting nor adulthood come with a manual. Today on the show , we try to give you one. I'm Andrew Bracken in for Jade Heinemann here with conversations that keep you informed , inspired and engaged. NPR's Mary Louise Kelly shares her struggles balancing life as a journalist and a mother.
S2: Nobody is ever going to love and need you as much as these two kids in this moment. So just sit there and live it because it it does go so fast.
S1: Then we get some parenting tips from a local parenting coach , plus a bestselling author on the secrets of adulthood. That's all ahead on Midday Edition. We all know what it's like to struggle with work life balance. But when your host of one of the nation's leading news programs on NPR. That balance is harder than ever to achieve. NPR's Mary Louise Kelly writes about her experience navigating motherhood and journalism in her book. It goes so fast. She's one of the hosts of NPR's All Things Considered , and her book is coming out on paperback next Tuesday , April 8th. And Mary Louise Kelly joins me now to talk more about it. Welcome to Midday Edition.
S2: Andrew , my total pleasure to join you. Thanks for having me.
S1: Great to have you here. So I want to start with a moment very early in the book. You're in Iraq about to get into a military helicopter , and you get a call from back home in Washington and take us back to that moment.
S2: I'm laughing and crying at the same time. At the time , I was one of NPR's Pentagon correspondents , I was traveling with the secretary of defense , as one does in the in the press pool , on the plane , on a visit , and at the time , the war in Iraq was in full swing and we had flown into Baghdad. And at the time the roads , even in an armed convoy , were not safe enough to transport the Secretary of Defense through the streets of Baghdad. So the way they did it was they had a fleet of Black Hawk helicopters organized that swooped down one by one onto the tarmac inside the Green zone. And they pick up , you know , they don't want too many on the ground. And to being sitting ducks for incoming fire at any given time. So the secdef gets the first one and the bigwigs , the admirals , generals , whoever's traveling with them get the second one and they proceed one by one until the press corps gets the last one , so that we are the last sitting ducks waiting to be picked up and whisked off to the next press event. That wherever we're headed , I think it was the Defense Ministry in Baghdad. And as I'm waiting , you're in full body armor at these things , even inside the green zone. And my cell phone rings and it is the school nurse at my youngest son school back in Washington , D.C. my youngest son was then four , and I can hear her talking. And , you know , it is loud when you have a fleet of Black Hawk helicopters swooping down and taking off. So I have to ask her to yell and push back my helmet so I can hold the phone up and try to hear her , and I can hear her saying , he's sick. Where are you ? How quickly can you get here ? And I'm I'm embarrassed to tell you. I think my first reaction was to laugh and think , lady , if you could see where I am , it's not going to be any time soon. Um , and I'm trying to answer and she she starts really shouting and saying , I don't mean to pick him up and bring him home. I mean , he's really sick. He's struggling to breathe. We need to get him to a doctor or to a hospital. Now , where are you ? And I had this moment , um , my , you know , my heart froze , and I'm trying to think how to answer her. And I'm doing the time zone calculation and thinking , where is their father ? Where is the babysitter ? Who can I get there ? And as I'm trying to answer her , I lost the line. I lost cell phone signal , and , uh. And the Blackhawk isn't waiting for me to sort this out. I gotta move , so I have to board. And I just remember sitting there in full body armor , in a helicopter hovering above the streets of Baghdad , thinking , what am I doing ? What am I doing ? My son is four years old. He may not be breathing. He needs me. And I am halfway around the world. And I , you know , on the on the plane trip back to what was then Andrews Air Force Base , I , I started writing what became the early kernel of my first novel , because I just thought , it is time for a career plan B , and I love my work and I'm good at it. And I worked hard to get here. But right now , for my family , this doesn't work.
S1: And that story kind of really gets into the heart of what this book is about. Can you talk about your goal in writing this book ? You mentioned you kind of stepped away to write a novel , but what about this book ? Take us back to the decision to kind of , you know , delve into this. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. So fast forward , I don't know , 12 , 15 years from that moment. And by way of closing the loop on that , my younger son is fine. He continued to breathe. My husband showed up. He took care of him. All was fine by the time I got home , but I did take a significant amount of time away from the news to be more present and more available. I wrote a couple books , never stopped missing the newsroom. Fast forward and I have two boys in high school and wrestled then as I wrestle now with trying to be in two places at once with trying to be true to a job that I did go back to and which I love , and trying to be true and show up for a family who I love. And there are days where that works really well , and days where I get it catastrophically wrong and When I'm hanging on by my toenails. I sat down to start writing this book because the older son , not the one who I got the phone call about from the school nurse in Baghdad. Um , the older one was a senior. It was he was going into his senior year of high school. And suddenly all of the things that I had missed because I was in Baghdad or in Afghanistan or , you know , anchoring , all things considered. So just on the other side of town , but still not home. Um , all the things that I had missed. And I kept thinking , well , it's fine , I'll make it next year. I'll make it next season. I'll make it next semester. I was suddenly out of next years and thinking , If I'm going to make a different choice , I need to make it now. And what does that look like and what does that entail ? And what are the trade offs there ? And in capturing it , I wanted to just sit and reckon with that one year and make it really stick , because it does go so fast.
S1: And time plays such an essential role in this book ? Obviously , as you mentioned there , even the title. Right ? It goes so fast , but there's a period after each word there , almost a kind of like reminding the reader to kind of take their time. And this is something , as a parent myself , I think about all the time. Talk to me about parenting and time.
S2: I think it's it goes so fast. It is true. And that you never know when might be your last shot at something. Um , you know , my boys are both grown and towering over me now , and there was a day where they crawled into my lap and wanted to sit in my lap while I held them. There was a day they'll never do that again. I can't remember when that day was. You don't know it in the moment. You can't know until suddenly months go by and you think , huh ? When did they stop doing that ? I , I remember so clearly with my youngest one , because I knew he would be the last , that I wouldn't have more children. Um , the last time I nursed him , the last time I breastfed him , I remember where I was sitting in my house and , uh , knowing this is the last time , but you don't usually I think about that with parents of very young kids. And I remember so clearly how exhausted I was at the end of a day , I would come home having slogged it out in the newsroom and reported my heart out all day. And I was tired and that I would get home and dinner needed doing and bath time needed doing. And by the time we got to Bedtime Stories , there was a part of me that just thought , oh , will you please just go to sleep ? Like I just don't have it in me to make up a superhero with flatulent story again tonight , even though you're begging. And then suddenly there's a moment where you look back and think , huh ? Now they just read Harry Potter and fall asleep by themselves. They don't want a bedtime story. I would do anything for them to beg me for a bedtime story. That was the last time. Um. And you don't know it in the moment. So I go back , and I wish I could tell my younger self. Nobody is ever going to love and need you as much as these two kids in this moment. So just sit there and live it because it it does go so fast.
S1: It's great advice. I want to end by asking about one line that comes up early in the book , which I think gets to many of these ideas about identity and kind of what you say , you know , you're wrestling with in this book , you write , quote , I was a journalist before I was a parent.
S2: There are multiple things about me , about any of us that define me , are important to me. Being a mom is the most important job I will ever have. Um , but I was a journalist before I was a mom , and I feel it in my bones. And I have tried , on more than one occasion , to walk away from daily Deadline news and the newsroom. And every time I keep coming back and , uh , I remember the last time that I came back to NPR after having been away for a few years to write books and raise my family. And I remember writing the elevator up to the third floor newsroom , which is where I'm speaking to you from now , and I the elevator doors dinged open and there was some big story. I couldn't even tell you what. It was something in the Middle East , I think , which is , you know , here we are. Here we are again. The people were running around in studio , doors were slamming , and I could hear the phones ringing , and I just felt in my soul , oh my God , thank God I'm back , I missed this , I feel so alive here. And as I say , there are days where that lines up really neatly with also needing to be home and telling the bedtime story and days where it really doesn't. And all I can say is , like everybody else , we're doing our best. We're holding on by our toenails some day , but we're holding on. And , um , and I hope that there is some piece of that that that resonates to people out there who who may not be parents , may not be journalists , um , but who have felt that feeling of when the things you love come into conflict , what do you do ? And it's something we all wrestle with every day.
S1: I've been speaking with NPR's Mary Louise Kelly. Her book is called It Goes So Fast. Mary Louise , thanks so much for your time today.
S2: This has been a total pleasure. Thank you Andrew.
S1: Up next , babies born in 2025 are part of a new generation , Generation Beta. We talk with a local child therapist about how to approach parenting today.
S3: You're not actually a parent. You are actually a substitute frontal lobe. That's your job. So you are regulating and organizing , prioritizing and doing all of that for another human being.
S1: Stay tuned. Midday edition's back after the break. Welcome back to KPBS Midday Edition. I'm Andrew Bracken in for Jade Hindman. As of January 1st , new babies born are considered to be the first members of Generation Beta. A new generation of babies also means a new generation of parents. And with that often comes a new generation of parenting trends. We wanted to talk more about it , and joining me now to do that is Jennifer Scolari. She's a child and family therapist , as well as a parenting coach based in San Diego. Hey , Jennifer. Hi.
S3: Hi. How are you ? Thanks for having me on.
S1: Oh , thanks for joining us. So you've been in this field for a few decades now.
S3: Okay , well , there's always parenting challenges in every generation. But I think with this generation it would probably have to be social media. That's a big one. And I think there's also been a really big shift in parenting. So like anything in life , it kind of swings. So 20 , 30 years ago , maybe it was more kind of what would be called parent centered parenting where , you know , kids were to be seen and not heard and parents were in charge. And kids kind of did what parents said. And then the last , maybe 20 years , it's really shifted. So kids have a lot of power now , and the parents aren't sure what to do about that. And it causes a lot of problems in terms of anxiety and emotional regulation and kids slipping out and parents not knowing what to do and such confusing parenting information , um , that it can be , it can be. It's a lot. Parenting is really hard. It's wonderful , but it is hard.
S1: I'm kind of glad you mentioned these sort of different philosophies , these different parenting trends that seem to come and go because as a parent myself , it gets really confusing. I have to say. Um , can you talk more about that ? I mean , I think you said you brought up this idea of kids kind of having more power over the last couple decades. I mean , what does that mean ? And how does that play out ? Like , what are the positives and negatives of that ? Absolutely.
S3: Well , and there's both always right. But when we were kids , you didn't really talk back to people much like you sort of had a healthy , um , respect for adults. And things just seemed to make more sense. And then in the last few years , it's really , really shifted. And part of that is parenting trends say no and timeouts are bad. And , um , kids need to have a say in everything. And there's a lot of wonderful things about that. But children ultimately need to know that the parents are in charge , right ? So like a really quick brain answer to that is we have our frontal lobe , which is the part of the brain that regulates and organizes and prioritizes and , you know , doesn't say that quiet part out loud. And that's all of that. And it takes about 25 years to grow one of those. So you're not actually a parent. You are actually a substitute frontal lobe. That's your job. So you are regulating and organizing and prioritizing and doing all of that for another human being. And so when some of the these kind of parenting trends get to and some of them are lovely and I think they all work together if you can integrate them. But what happens is , when kids have too much power , they will act out. They will push back , hoping to find those walls. Like who's in charge ? Like , why are people letting me.
S1: Get away with lines ? They're right. Yeah.
S3: Yeah. Where are the lines ? And they're not going to sit down and say , hey , mom , like , I really think you should toughen up with me. I'm getting away with too much. They're gonna actually accelerate their behavior , hoping that someone's going to say , okay , enough , um , and how to do that ? That balance is really important. And that's where a lot of the conflicting information is in the , in the different parenting models that are out there.
S1: And , you know , you mentioned some of these parenting trends. I mean , I'm having these different trends come to mind to me , like gentle parenting. There was , um , free range parenting. And again , as a parent , it is overwhelming. So , um , I mean , I keep part of it , you know , what we're talking about here is , is discipline ultimately , right ? Yeah. And that is something that is obviously changed in a lot of ways , I imagine for the better over the years. Can you talk more about discipline and parenting today and how it's changed.
S3: So discipline is actually very different from punishment okay. Punishments don't work. I'll be honest. They really don't. They often backfire and can cause harm. But discipline is really important and it's actually essential to good mental health. It's important for children to have a good sense of of who they are , and for emotional recovery and emotional resilience and attachment and all of those things. Um , limits are also love. And I think that's where some of the confusion comes in for parents. And I'm not saying that like gentle parenting and some of the other models aren't , they don't have wonderful elements to them. If you happen to have a kid who's kind of born with this temperament , where they're kind of pretty regulated and they don't give you too much of a hard time , fantastic. But more and more kids are , I think lately over the last number of years , just born a bit more sassy , like neuro spicy. They're like , why ? Why don't I don't have to do that. You're not the boss of me. And so when you don't have really healthy , solid , loving , Having predictable , meaningful limits in place. That's when you tend to see real pushback with behavior , emotional regulation , anxiety. And I'll give you a quick analogy to kind of really bring this home. Like let's say you're on an airplane , okay. You're you're a passenger on the airplane. And it's a terrifying , bumpy flight. You don't want the captain coming down the aisle saying , hey , I know you look scared. Um , I can do 30,000ft if you want. Try 28. I can try going around the storm. What do you guys think ? What would you say is the passenger ? Like , are you nuts ? Why are you asking me ? I'm a passenger. Fly the plane. And so kids are often looking to us and going , oh , dear God , she's in charge. But she's mad one minute and good with this the next minute. And so we're kind of all over the place. So part of what's really important and what I think has gotten lost in a lot of the different parenting models out there. There's elements of beauty in all of them is the integration. And that's I think what's different about so my practice is called connected parenting. And it's really about empathy and listening and love and compassion and using language as medicine , but also setting very solid , sturdy , predictable loving limits. And it's within that framework that kids really seem to thrive.
S1:
S3: Um , I think most of the questions are around kids having anxiety. So anxiety is kind of through the roof for lots of different reasons. Um , with adults as well , not just kids. Um , and being a parent is also very anxiety provoking and can be. Um , I would say , um , emotional regulation issues. So kids freaking out , temper tantrums , meltdowns and just really having a hard time with regulation is another , Other , you know , sibling issues and then a lot around around social media and limiting devices and how to set those limits. Bedtime tends to be a really big one. Kids have a really hard time going to sleep because they're anxious and they're pushing boundaries. And hey , if you're not flying the plane , I will. So I'm not going to bed. Um , and it's just really guiding and helping parents through this really challenging journey. And listen , parenting is absolutely wonderful. You will never love anyone as much as you love your children , but it can also take you to like the darkest parts of yourself where you are just done , frustrated and exhausted. And it's overwhelming. Especially if you have what I affectionately call a gladiator child , or like a neuro spicy kid , like one of those kids that just has a really strong counter well and just puts their foot down. No , why should I ? I'm not going to and just really kind of defiant. Those children are really , really challenging. And the other thing about parenting is that that's really makes it very complicated , is one type of parenting works really well on one kid. It will absolutely backfire with another kid. Like , I can tell you right now that some of the other sort of softer parenting methods backfire wildly with , with , uh , neuro spicy kids , with kids with a strong counter world and actually being too tough and too kind of behavioral will also backfire on those kids.
S1: You mentioned one thing there about , you know , parents being overwhelmed and that that kind of reminded me of , you know , I think the former surgeon general actually issued an advisory on parental stress and cited a 2023 report that found , you know , nearly half of parents said that they were pretty much , you know , completely overwhelmed by stress. Uh , I think , um.
S3: I think , you know , one kind of major factor is that there is this so much more information now. And I mean , I'm certainly much older than you , but when I was a little kid , so in the 60s and 70s , the model was I think it was Doctor Spock , which was like , oh , just put a towel under the door and let the kids scream. They'll figure it out. And when you when you pick them up and they're crying , you're going to turn them into , you know , they won't be able to handle their emotions. And that was completely wild. And then that swung over 20 or 30 years to sort of the exact opposite of that , like a pendulum trying to correct that too much. And then we went too far the other way. So I think that's one factor. And you can see that in like TV and media , like like when I was little , there were shows where , you know , the adults were in charge. There would be a problem , something would happen. And there was a reliable , sturdy , loving adult that would help the kid figure it out and learn the lesson. And then somewhere , I don't know , 20 or 30 years ago , the shows are full of kids who have all the answers , and the adults are idiots and they don't know anything. And the kids are all smarter than the adults , which I think also got into the psyche of kids a little bit. Social media has had a huge impact and role on that , and I think parents are stressed and busy. It is. Things cost a lot of money. Parents are working crazy hours. They're both working two jobs. Um , life is expensive. People are exhausted. Um , and if you go back far enough , it was a community that raised children. It was. It literally was a village. And relatives and people helped. And it's a lot of stress on just the nuclear family to do everything all by themselves all the time. And parents are exhausted and moms in particular are really , really tired. And it's hard. And because kids have so much power and they push back so much. You know , I have a lot of moms that just say , I love my kids , I really do. But sometimes I just I just want them to go away. Like , just leave me alone. I can't , I just can't , I am spent. And then kids , of course , don't know what to do with that. So they cling harder and you end up in this sort of what I call chain of pain , where everybody's just upset all the time. And it's it's not meant to be that way. So it really can be very hard. There's lots of lovely moments in there too , but parenting is much harder than it looks. Yeah.
S1: Yeah.
S3: So the stronger the connection and the more , um , you're able to soothe and comfort your child , which also means being able to do that for yourself as well. By the way , the more , um , endorphins , natural opiates , a very powerful hormone slash neurotransmitter called oxytocin , leads the bloodstream. And so when kids feel that solid sense of those beautiful reward chemicals , when they feel deeply heard , deeply cared about , deeply listened to , it's very healing. And it's also a cortisol blocker. So what what oxytocin actually does is it reduces cortisol , which is what causes kids to flip out and get mad and get upset and have a tantrum , temper tantrum and freak out. So it's a cortisol blocker , strengthens the immune system so it actually makes your kids stronger and more resistant and resilient. Disease and infection. It speeds up neuroplasticity. What parent wouldn't want that ? That means your kids actually learn better and remember things better , and take healthy risks in learning when they feel very connected to and loved. All of those you get to bounce back. So as the parent delivering that , your brain gets all of those wonderful things as well. And it's free. You don't need a prescription and you don't run out of it. So even though parents are stressed and busy , I want parents to understand that through these little moments of connection , just putting your hands on your kids cheeks , look in their eyes deeply and say , I know we're busy and this is a crazy moment , but I love you. Right ? You are the cutest thing. And I really noticed when you did this lovely thing and just these little moments taking time. Even if you've been busy and you've worked all day taking a few minutes and do what I call limbic bonding or baby play with your kids , even if they're eight , ten , 12 , it doesn't matter. Like make them feel absolutely , deliciously loved. Rub noses. Tell them stories about when they're a baby. Show them pictures when they're a baby. That is powerful , powerful medicine that actually will help to calm them down and will also help as you're flowing through your day and getting your kids to do the things they have to do. Um , it'll help.
S1: You know , as we've talked about parenting , you know , it's such a special experience. And with it come these challenges.
S3: I think the other piece has to do with when you're if if you're parenting in a partnership , if you if you're parenting with a spouse and this to some degree even happens when you're a single parent. But to know that you're each kind of bringing something to the table. So what often happens in parenting is , is the parents also polarize. So one parent tends to be the one going , oh my gosh , it's not his fault he's hungry like he didn't mean to. And I feel bad for him. And let's not. That consequence seems mean in this moment. And then what often happens is the other parent has to compensate. This is ridiculous. These kids are getting away with everything. We have to set some limits around here. This is this is crazy. And what ends up happening is the parents sort of overcompensate for what they feel is a weakness , and the other one's parenting. So the softer one gets softer and the tougher one gets tougher. And the truth is , you are both right. I will end that argument right now. You are both correct. Your child does need to be understood. Behavior is never the problem. It's a symptom of the problem. And your job as a parent is to figure out what that behavior means with compassion and love and empathy , which is unbelievably healthy. We don't have enough time even to go into how much that helps in terms of brain development and confidence and self-awareness and all of that stuff. But the other parent is also right. You need to mean what you say and say what you mean , and consequences need to be delivered. Not in anger. Not in a rage , but in a sturdy I love you enough for you to be mad at me kind of way. So you're actually both right. And what's lovely , I think about the connected parenting method because it starts with , um , the calm technique , which I haven't really had a chance to go into. But this particular way that you speak to your children. So it causes both parents to start on the softer side , and then you follow up with a consequence. And most of the time , if you've mirrored correctly , the kid will just comply. They'll just be like , okay. Um , and in the time that they won't , if they're really , you know , digging in and doubling down , then you're delivering the consequence , um , with authority , but with a lot of love. So the child actually feels love through the consequence.
S1: And Jennifer , I kind of like I think you kind of mentioned this earlier. I mean , parenting , in my experience , Definitely perfection is not an option , right ? We're going to we're going to make mistakes. What do you tell parents about that ? I mean , we might have like a great game plan going into bedtime and then things may go off the rails.
S3: It is hard enough to regulate yourself sometimes , especially in the crazy times that we're in. And then you have to turn around and regulate another person. And it's really difficult to do that when you're feeling anxious or upset or super angry yourself. So really just have a lot of grace for yourself. Make sure you're taking time to take care of yourself , too. You know , a lot of parents , particularly moms , you know , put everyone else ahead of themselves. Um , which a isn't the best message to your children anyway ? And two , if you're totally depleted , if you're so exhausted , um , then you're going to have a really hard time regulating for someone else. So I think that sort of grace. Peace. There is no perfection. It's perfectly imperfect. You're going to get it right. Sometimes you're going to get it wrong sometimes. And when you get it wrong , you go back and you repair. Remember yesterday when I told you to go live at the neighbors ? You know what ? I shouldn't have said that. And here's what I was feeling at the time. And you were just trying to tell me that you didn't want to wear that raincoat or whatever it is. You can always go back and repair. It's such a good message to children to show that you care , that you're listening , that you're regulating and thinking about your own behavior and taking responsibility for it. And not in a kids have power kind of way. And I want to show up in my best way for you , and I want to show you what that looks like kind of way. And listen , you do the best you can. You wake up in the morning , you know , on some days it's better than others. Like , that's just the truth. And if you love your kids like crazy , if you take those moments to deeply , deeply connect , that is the best possible medicine for them. And at the end of the day , life is kind of crazy. But that's what they'll remember. That's what they'll hold on to that they felt deeply , deeply loved.
S1: Well , Jennifer , I just appreciate you sharing some of your insights here. I just wish we had this conversation maybe a decade ago for me personally , but.
S3: Never too late. It is never too late.
S1: Never too late. Okay. I've been speaking with Jennifer Keller. She's a child and family therapist and parenting coach in San Diego. Jennifer , thanks again for joining us today.
S3: You're so welcome. Thank you.
S1: Ahead , a new book from a bestselling author digs into the secrets of adulthood.
S4: Often , the things that make us feel happy overall don't make us feel good in the moment.
S1: That's coming up on Midday Edition. Welcome back to KPBS Midday Edition. I'm Andrew Bracken in for Jade Hyneman. This hour we've been talking about the challenges of parenting. Sometimes it can feel like we're still growing up , just like our kids. But really , the transition to adulthood is a whole different challenge. Gretchen Rubin has a new book about this , The Secrets of Adulthood. She brings us simple truths for our complex lives , from big life transitions to the pursuit of happiness. Gretchen Rubin is a bestselling author and host of The Happier podcast. She's bringing her new book to the Pacific Highlands Ranch Library for a Q&A and signing on Monday. Midday edition producer Ashley Rusch sat down with Gretchen to talk more about it. Here's that conversation.
S5: So , Gretchen , when I hear this word adulthood , I think about how daunting it can feel for young people today. Myself included.
S4: So I just found as I was going through life and , you know , with time and experience , I would learn these secrets of adulthood. And I wanted to write them down , first of all , so I could give them to my two daughters , but also so I could remember them myself , because I have to keep reminding myself of these secrets over and over , even though I'm quite grown up. Something like working is one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination. I mean , I have to think about that every week.
S5: Yeah , and I mean , in your previous books , you've devoted much of your career to exploring happiness. You're also the author of The Happiness Project and Happier at Home.
S4: But really , the whole book is about happiness because it's about things like self-knowledge , and we have to know ourselves if we're going to make our lives happier. It's about getting things done , because a lot of times you think , gosh , I know I would. I know my life would be happier if I could just move forward on this project or making tough decisions , because I find that a big challenge for happiness. Is feeling stuck or or , you know , having analysis paralysis because we can't figure out how to move forward like the pros and the cons feel equally weighted or we're we're not sure about consequences. And so it's hard to make a decision. So that's the kind of thing where I wrote these secrets of adulthood. Yeah.
S5: Yeah. And I feel like so much of adulthood is struggling to find this balance , you know , between work , cooking , exercise , chores. And that's not to mention hobbies and a social life.
S4: And basically what it boils down to is people saying , okay , tell me what I should do to have a happier life. Mhm. And then I always say , well it depends because it depends on you. It depends on your strengths , your weaknesses , your values , your interests , your challenges. But so you know , there's really no one right answer , no best answer. And then people say okay yeah that makes good sense. But just tell me like what's the best way to make yourself happier ? So one of my aphorisms , one of my secrets of adulthood , is there is no one best way to make your life happier. Just like there's no one best way to cook an egg. Because if you say to somebody , well , what's the best way to cook an egg ? They say , well , I don't know. It depends on how you like your eggs. Or maybe you don't even like eggs. So we each have to figure it out for ourselves , and that many of the secrets of adulthood are about that , about the idea that we each have to figure it out for ourselves. Yeah.
S5: Yeah. And you mentioned the word aphorism there. I know in this book you really lean into that concept. So explain what that is and your approach to it in this book.
S4: Aphorisms is something we're all very familiar with , which is a concise statement that's trying to distill a major observation about human nature. And , you know , sometimes these are just come to us as folk wisdom. So they're proverbs , like a stumble may prevent a fall , or you can't push a rope or a stitch in time saves nine. But sometimes an aphorism is an observation like this. But it was said by a specific person , like we know to whom to attribute it. So maybe Mark Twain said it , or Warren Buffett said it , or Oscar Wilde said it. Or one of my favorite actors is Marie von Eschenbach. So these are these are all secrets of adulthood that are expressed in 1 or 2 lines. I'm really trying to distill these ideas into , you know , the short , punchy statement. So because they're so short , it's it's easy to decide whether you agree or disagree. People may not agree with all of my all my secrets of adulthood. But even knowing that you disagree is clarifying. Mhm.
S5: Mhm. I'm just curious , like what it was like taking these big concepts and kind of condensing them down into an aphorism.
S4: It's much easier to write long than to write short. I mean , some of these took me so long to even understand a concept. So , for instance , one of my favorite secrets of adulthood is accept yourself and also expect more from yourself. And I think that's really important for a happy life. We have to accept ourselves , and we also have to expect more from ourselves. And it took me a very long time to understand that these these two ideas are in tension and they sort of can never be fully reconciled. And we have to think about both of them at the same time or something like we care for many people we don't particularly care for. It took me a while to sort of understand what I was trying to say and think of a way to express it. That was short and punchy , but would also kind of capture the complexity that I was thinking about. The book is just starting to go out into the world , and one that's been interesting to me that a lot of people have mentioned is perfectionism is driven not by high standards , but by anxiety. So that's an example where sometimes it's like it. My hope is that it will give people kind of a new way to think about something that might be challenging them. You know , sometimes one sentence can change our lives. I'm hoping that people will find that kind of illumination.
S5: You know , one thing that you just mentioned , there was perfectionism.
S4: And I think a lot of times when people feel the burden of perfectionism , they think , well , people are telling me to lower my standards so that I feel less anxious , but I don't want to lower my standards. But the fact is , it isn't about high standards , it's about anxiety. And so you want to think about working on that instead of working on perfectionism or thinking about what your standards are. Because , um , some people have extraordinarily high standards , but they don't feel this weight of perfectionism. So I think this is a good example of a larger principle , which is when we're facing some kind of happiness challenge , we should really step back and identify the problem. What happens a lot of times is we have a vague sense , like we say , well , I'm so stressed out at work , but we don't really press ourselves to identify exactly what that problem might be. And there's many reasons that a person might be stressed out at work. You might be stressed out because you have a horrible commute. You might be stressed out because your best friend , uh , got a different job , and now you feel like you've got no one to confide in and no one who has your back. You might be stressed out because you feel like your boss isn't on your side. You might be stressed out because now you're doing the work of three people and so your workload is tremendously increased. There's many , many reasons that you might feel stressed out at work , but if you don't stop and really understand , like what exactly is the problem ? You might misunderstand what you're going through and then also try to do something to fix it that is going to be beside the point. So for instance , if the reason that you're stressed out at work is because you get 4.5 hours of sleep every night , because you fall into a really bad habit of staying up late binge watching your favorite television shows , then you know something like working on to make more friends at work probably isn't going to fix it. Might be a good idea to have more friends at work. It's always good to have friends at work , but that's not going to fix your particular problem. I think we often misdiagnose what the issue is. I remember a friend of mine said she was going to buy a new apartment , and then I said , hey , what happened ? You were going to buy a new apartment because you wanted that outdoor space you kept talking about. And she goes , yeah , well , I thought I wanted outdoor space. But then I realized I really want a husband. I thought , that's a big difference , right ? But she had misidentified the problem. A lot of times we change what's easy to change rather than what needs to change. So it's really important to identify the problem. So again with perfectionism people are like , oh , I feel all this anxiety because I want my project to be perfect. Instead of saying , oh , I'm feeling anxious because I'm experiencing anxiety , you know , and I need to work on that. Mhm.
S5: Mhm. And just while we're on that , I'm curious if you explore kind of how perfectionism and procrastination go hand in hand at all and this as well. Mhm.
S4: Mhm. Well procrastination is a major challenge. Um , yes. One of my favorite secrets of adulthood is that working is one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination. And perfectionism is one reason that people procrastinate because they just don't want to let something go. That's related to an aphorism. It's set in a different context , but it's the same principle , which is It's better to have friends over for takeout than to invite friends over for a home cooked dinner. Never. You know. Um , and so sometimes we have to lower the bar in order to get something done , because otherwise we just use that our perfectionism as a reason to procrastinate endlessly.
S5: Well , Gretchen , also in your book , you explore the concept of play as it relates to happiness. Tell me about that and kind of the relationship between play and work and our happiness.
S4: Well , as many experts have observed , play is the work of childhood. Uh , Jean Piaget said that. Maria montessori said that. Fred Rogers said that I think we've all observed that play is the work of childhood , but at its best , I think work is the play of adulthood. And I would offer myself as an example of this , because nothing was more playful and more fun for me than to work on this book. In fact , I called it my hooky book for a long time because I would work on it when I was supposed to be working on my book , Life in Five Senses. I'd be like , okay , I'm going to sneak away and work on my hooky book. And the hooky book was this book. Um , and I think that , you know , we don't we can't always achieve that. But at its best , work is the play of adulthood. It's what gives meaning to our time. It's what teaches us. It's what puts us into connection with other people and what it gives us. An atmosphere of growth. It gives purpose and meaning to our lives. And , um , you know , it's it's how we learn.
S5: And Gretchen , in addition to being an author , you also have a podcast called happier. You have a blog , and on your website you also have a manifesto.
S4: I have so many manifestos. I have a habits manifesto , a happiness manifesto , a podcast manifesto , an engagement manifesto , uh , a clutter clearing , a manifesto. I think this is a great thing to do. It's a great exercise. It's very creative. It's very fun. It's very clarifying. So you just sit down and think , well , what what are my principles ? What do I believe and for what ? For most people , it turns out they have many opinions. Um , they have their own secrets of adulthood. This is kind of another way to present your secrets of adulthood. And , um , it's a it's and it's something that you can work on for years as you learn more or expand your views on things. And so I think it is it's a very fun exercise. You can do it as a team in the workplace. You could do it as a family , like I've heard of people doing family manifestos. So this can be this is just a very fun , creative way to really distill down what you have , what you believe and observe.
S5: And I just want to highlight one of the things you have in your manifesto , which relates to what we were talking about earlier. Happiness doesn't always make you feel happier. What do you mean by that ? Break that down for me.
S4: Well , if you're a scientist , of course you have to be very precise in your in your definition of happiness. And there's something like 15 or 17 academic definitions of happiness. And so an academic could not say that. But I can say that because I think we all , we all have have experienced this. So when we're thinking about what makes us happy , we have to think about what makes us feel good , what makes us feel bad. Things like guilt , regret , remorse , anger , boredom , uh , feeling right , which is having a life that reflects our values and having an atmosphere of growth. And often the things that make us feel happy overall don't make us feel good in the moment. For instance , things that in which we live up to our values often don't make us feel good. They might actually make us feel bad. And I always think of a friend of mine had a very difficult father , was not close to his father , and his father was in the hospital and he went to visit him every day , even though his two brothers refused to go. And I said , well , how do you feel about that ? And he said , I really I don't want to go , I dread going , I don't like going. I don't like seeing him. I have all these complicated feelings about him. I look back on it are worst experience , and yet I go because he's still my father. And so that's so. Did it make him happy ? It didn't make him feel happy , but it didn't make him happier and that overall , his life was a reflection of his values. And in that sense , he felt happier. I think so and so. Happiness doesn't always make us feel happy.
S5: And you'll be bringing all of these ideas and many more on Monday to San Diego at the Pacific Highland Ranch Library. You're going to be doing a Q&A and a book signing. So tell me a little bit more about what you have in store.
S4: Well , we will be getting into some of the most interesting secrets of adulthood. I am , so I love talking to listeners and readers. So , um , doing Q&A is always my favorite part. And there are a couple hundred of these secrets in this book. But what's going to be interesting to me is to find out what resonates most with other people. So I'm very excited to be in conversation there.
S1: That was author Gretchen Rubin speaking with Midday Edition's Ashley Rush. Gretchen will be bringing her book to the Pacific Highlands Ranch Library on Monday , April 7th at 7 p.m.. That's our show for today. I'm Andrew Bracken. KPBS Midday Edition airs on KPBS FM weekdays at noon , again at 8 p.m.. You can find past episodes at KPBS or wherever you listen. Thanks again for listening. Have a great day.
