S1: Hey there San Diego. It's Andrew Bracken in for Jade Heinemann. San Diego Libraries face sizable cuts in the mayor's latest budget proposal. Plus , we look at how college libraries are navigating the benefits and challenges that come from AI. This is Midday Edition , connecting our communities through conversation. Earlier this month , Mayor Todd Gloria announced his proposed budget for the upcoming fiscal year. It includes budget cuts to the city's 36 library branches. While none of them would close and ours wouldn't be cut. Library advocates still say losing that funding would threaten programs and services. The budget is now in the public review phase , with the City council making final decisions on the budget in mid-June. Patrick Stewart , CEO of the Library Foundation , joined Midday Edition host Jade Heinemann to talk more about how the proposed cuts could impact our local libraries. Director of the San Diego Public Library , Misty Jones also talked about challenges the library is facing. Here's that interview.
S2:
S3: Yes. So the proposed budget would impact the libraries in a pretty significant way , you know , really crippling the way that the San Diego Public Library delivers quality resources , services , programs , technology. And the thing that we find most most concerning at the foundation and library supporters is the way that we believe that this budget , not even just with the library , but the way that this budget overall disproportionately affects , you know , residents in marginalized communities and the way that they receive services and programs and resources , many of which are delivered specifically through the library. Yeah.
S2: Yeah.
S3: Uh , currently , you know , the the library delivers about 6000 programs each year and about 3500 , almost 4000 of them are designed specifically for children , youth and families. And these are programs that enhance literacy skills , learning academics , uh , you know , connection to technology and , and other resources , and to have that budget to have that line item reduced by 62% really prohibits , you know , our amazing librarians and being able to deliver these incredible programs. There's also some cuts that are being made to the libraries computer system. And so they wouldn't be able to replace aging computers that patrons use. And then there's also cuts that are being made to the ability that the library has in just maintaining its circulation , its books , its shelving. It's making sure that holds are getting out to patrons on time. All of these things affect the way that we use the library. And and that's that's a real concern for us.
S2:
S3: As you know , a , uh , sales tax is being proposed to be put on the ballot in November of this year. And if that does go on the ballot and if that is passed , you know , that would bring a significant amount of money into the city's general fund , which is needed. And I don't want to sound tone deaf to the fact that , yes , the city does need to find money and get creative with revenue if it is going to meet these , uh , these expenses. However , what's concerning is that the type of cuts that have been proposed , if they aren't one time and they are ongoing , this will have a real a real dramatic effect on the libraries , just the libraries basic ability to deliver. It's fundamental. It's fundamental , uh , services. And and even if they are just one time cuts , you know , when children , youth and families , particularly young people who use the library for literacy , skill building , educational work , academics , connection to technology and whatnot , you know , we're losing another year. And there was a lot of talk. You know , during Covid , what happens when a child loses a year ? And I look at this as losing a year of ability to learn , to thrive , to connect and to engage. And that's , you know , kids just don't have that opportunity.
S2: Well , missed one program that could be impacted by the budget is access for all.
S4: And we you know , we implemented this. And during Covid , we realized that we when we closed libraries , that so many people were completely cut off from access. They depend on the libraries to get on the internet , you know , to get on the internet to use a computer. They don't have that access at home. The digital divide is still very real. In San Diego. There's a significant number of families that don't have internet at home. So with. Access for all. We expanded Wi-Fi across the city. Uh , we , um , have a hotspot and a Chromebook lending program. So we lend out hotspots , we lend out Chromebooks , but we also had a Digital Navigator program. And that is what is being cut is the Digital Navigator program. We had a partnership with the San Diego Futures Foundation where we would have drop in. We'd have people and people could drop in. They could , uh , get , you know , one on one help with , you know , uh , how to how to use their smartphone , how to kind of computer training. They also did computer classes , but they also did counseling and worked one on one with people to try to find them. Solutions to have internet at home , low cost solutions for them to have internet access at home. And so that is what is being cut , is the Digital Navigator program. And so we're really trying to think of how can we continue this a little bit , how can we pick this up. As I said , you know librarians are here to help. And so we will be able to provide some resources and some assistance for people , but not to the extent that we were with the Digital Navigator program.
S2: Well , Patrick , I mean , you know , there are many people who depend on the library , and yet there is this long history of underfunding , right ? Yes.
S3: We were fortunate enough in the last couple of years to develop and present , uh , for unanimous approval to , uh , to the city council last November , a new library master plan that looks , you know , ten , 20 , 30 years into the future. And and it's not only talks about facilities , but it talks about operations and staffing and technology and program delivery as well. And you know what ? What gives me pause about this is that , you know , we're looking at making what needs to be , you know , really generational style investments and and if we're if we're not able to do that looking if we weren't able to do that , looking backwards to get to where we are now , you know , it concerns me that we won't be able to do that. Looking forward , the library 20 years ago was afforded an opportunity through the city council at the time , uh , through a city ordinance to receive 6% of the general fund every year to go towards operating maintenance , capital improvements , you know , that kind of thing. Uh , books , materials , resources , programs , everything. And , uh , that had never been realized. The library hovers around 3 to 3.2% of the general fund. And , uh , so if we can if we can work with not only our local city government , but state and federal government as well , and ensure that people recognize that the investment that you're making today will pay off decades in the future , and the kinds of work that the libraries do in delivering those , those programs in a safe , efficient space , then , you know , that's that's where we're going to grow as a society. We believe I believe personally. But , you know , with that lack of investment that's happened year over year over year over year , that keeps crippling the library's ability to really deliver 110% on its promise. Hmm.
S2: Hmm.
S3: So San Diego , you know , I like to , as someone pointed out to me recently , you know , San Diego is what the second largest city in the world's fifth or sixth largest economy , and yet invest so poorly into some of our social social infrastructure programs like libraries , schools and parks. On the library side , you know , we are not funded through a tax levy. Uh , we're not funded through any other public funding other than , uh , state grants , uh , some federal funding , but largely through our municipal general fund. And so that leaves us at a real at a real disadvantage when it comes to building out our library system. So for I'll just give you for an example , the , uh , on a per capita spending when it comes to books , materials , resources , ebooks , audio books , uh , databases , the things that you generally go into a library to use on a per capita basis , San Francisco spends about $20. The city of San Diego spends just over $2 per person on books , materials , resources , the kind of , like I said , the kinds of things that are important to a library user. And that pales in comparison. I mean , it pales in comparison to the county. You know , we we have about $2 million to be able to spend a little more than $2 million to be able to spend on those products. And the county spends about $7 million on those products. You know , Misti and and her team and myself and some of our team spent a good part of last year visiting each of the branches and speaking with patrons , customers , friends groups , volunteers and whatnot. And , you know , one of the things that we heard that the biggest challenge that library patrons face across the board , so across the board , is the inability to just simply get the materials that they're going to the library to use. And and that's really unfortunate. We are one of the lowest funded systems , uh , large urban systems across the country. Uh , certainly here in , in the state of California. And it really it's a real concern. Wow.
S2: Wow. Well , you know , here's my question , though. But , you know , with a budget , there's always talk of shortfalls and limited resources and a $137 million deficit here with San Diego facing so many issues homelessness , housing , infrastructure , to name a few.
S3: And you know , one of the things that we're watching as a foundation through this budget is are there disproportionate cuts that are happening to social infrastructure , things like parks and libraries , as opposed to other other things that are being cut across the city ? And again , I I'm empathetic to where we're at , um , financially , it's just when we look historically , year over year , particularly over the last 20 years , we have had up years , we've had down years , we've had median years. You know , we've consistently underfunded even in better times. We've consistently underfunded our library. And then when it's time to tighten our belt , we look to the library to tighten its belt. Um , first. And I think that's , that's largely , you know , because librarians are amazing , creative , intelligent people who have shown the ability that they they can still persevere. But we're getting to a point that that perseverance is being stretched so thin that they that the delivery just , just can't be there. Right ? So I'm going to be watching through the rest of this budget cycle , uh , where some of the other cuts are landing , and are they disproportionately being , uh , levied on institutions like the library and communities of concern ? A lot of the cuts that are being proposed outside of the library still intersect with the library. So , for example , if you cut an after school program for teens in Southeast San Diego , and the teens then would shift to going over to the library to participate in afterschool programs and use those resources there. But the resources aren't available. What have we done ? You know , the Digital Navigator program that Misty was just talking about ? They cut the Digital Navigator program. But where do low income seniors go to learn how to use the computer and and connect to the world around them. So these a lot of these cuts aren't just for the library or just isolated to different departments. They intersect with the way that the city itself can deliver goods and services and programs and products to its citizens. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. Misty , do you have anything to add to that ? No.
S4: I mean , in my perspective , you know , in the city wide and and being a city department , it's a it's a tough budget year. And it's really , you know , I don't envy anybody who has to make these decisions to what has to be cut and to have to look at this holistically. You know , there was a 2% budget reduction across the board for all departments and and really trying to be we were tried to really be strategic in what we reduced and what we put forward , um , for reductions in order to try to limit the service level impacts as much as possible. And that's just what you know , we continue to do is , is , uh , understanding that , yeah , there is a deficit , there's an , uh , significant deficit. And what can we do to still , uh , try to provide that excellent customer service to our patrons with , you know , really more limited resources and just being hopeful that this is a very temporary thing and that we will start to , uh , to see some of these things come back. That's that's what my hope is. Hmm.
S2: Well , you know , Mr.. I want to I'm going to switch gears a little bit here and , and talk about this national trend of , you know , the suppression of certain books and libraries in recent years. Here. I'm thinking about last summer , when the entire LGBTQ plus pride display at the Rancho library , um , was checked out and removed. I'm wondering if you've felt more pressure amid actions like these.
S4: We do , um , you know , and I will say , you know , uh , that in California and in San Diego , we're very fortunate in that we do have a very supportive community. We have an inclusive for the most part. Community. And so , you know , from that example in Rancho Dos , I think that we saw just , you know , that action. But we the response was overwhelmingly in support of the library and in support of inclusion. And , you know , we ended up actually raising $30,000 , you know , from that of people wanting to replace those books and , and provide more materials. And so that , uh , you know , that makes me really proud of this community and what we're and what we're doing. But we are starting to see just nationally and here , just people pushing. And , you know , one of this is one of the things that led from that. And , and Patrick , uh , can speak to this too. As we started a program called Books on Band , we actually joined in Brooklyn Public Library. Uh , was the founder of this program , and it's Seattle Public , la County , Boston and , um , us and it's providing library cards for youth ages 12 to 26 across the nation to be able to access a digital collection of banned and restricted materials so that we are able to , you know , give some kind of respite for those in communities where they are seeing these challenges and being able to provide that. So I'm very proud of that program and and how we're able to use our experience and use our place as being , you know , really not seeing the amount of challenges that others , but using our platform to be able to inform people that this is happening in other parts of the country , to be able to be part of the solution and be able to , you know , continue to offer access , um , to these materials so that no one has to go without. And that's our goal is just to continue to bring awareness to this. But it is challenging. It's the first time in my career I've been in libraries for 25 years , is the first time that I've ever had to defend wanting to provide resources and information on for people to better their life. I never thought that I would ever have to defend the basic purpose of a library. And so that's , you know , it's disconcerting that that's happening in this country. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. Well , but it sounds like the public library has a huge role in creating an inclusive community. Patrick , back to the budget. The Library Foundation has raised money to fill in these gaps. That's mostly private donations , though.
S3: And and through the Books on band program that's entirely philanthropically focused , uh , funded. And the Library Foundation is proud to be able to do that. And we'll continue to do that. One of the things , though , that is of concern is that as budgets get tighter and tighter and elected officials see , uh , library supporters stepping up for some of these other programs , that there will be an unhealthy reliance on private philanthropy to fill in a public obligation. And that and that is a concern. And we have that conversation with donors , again , like , you know , the books on banned program , we're making sure that public funding isn't taking away the ebooks in Misty's collection and giving them somewhere else. We're ensuring that private philanthropy is supporting that. And then adding to that collection for young people here in San Diego , those are the types of programs and the way that that library philanthropy should operate , filling in the basic core needs of the fundamentals of what libraries do through private philanthropy is really a slippery slope towards defunding a public institution. And the communities across the country with the highest level of private philanthropy get to go forward with gusto , and the communities that are philanthropically challenged are left behind. And that's the that's a direction that I fear. Budgets like this and narratives within the budget as proposed tend to lead to.
S2:
S3: Conversations during good times. Uh , you know , I think this is a conversation that we need to be having every year , regardless of whether or not the city is recognizing a deficit or an increase in revenue. I think that we need to have a start conversation with what we expect when we build facilities and what we expect when we maintain facilities , you know ? I think we need to have a real conversation amongst ourselves about understanding what what we get as a society , as a community , even as as little neighborhoods , what we get out of having a quality library , whether or not we as an individual uses the library in the same way the young family across the street does. When we start recognizing the powerful positive effect that the library and the library programs and resources has on all of us , because it is the great equalizer. When we begin realizing that , we begin recognizing , like I said before , the long term benefits. And and I think that then we begin moving in a positive direction when it comes to looking at how we're publicly funding institutions like libraries. Mhm.
S5: Mhm. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. Well , Misty , I'm going to give you the last word here. I mean , you know , how can people support their local libraries outside of paying taxes.
S4: So I think just continuing to use the library , um , continuing to support us , continuing to come to programming to check out books , continuing to show that libraries are relevant and to tell us how valuable libraries are to them and what they're using libraries for now , um , that is the biggest thing that people can. Um , it's just use your local library. Uh , show us that you value the library , that you value the resources that we have. And I think that's where you start to get that awareness of how important it is , is when people speak up and pay attention , pay attention to what's happening. Um , I can't say that enough when when people are attacking libraries now is everybody needs to pay attention , pay attention to the censorship issues. Pay attention to what's happening in your local , um , even local school board elections and speak out when you see something that , um , when there is censorship or things , things that you don't agree with is to speak up.
S1: That was Misti Jones , director of the San Diego Public Library , along with Patrick Stewart , CEO of the Library Foundation , speaking with Midday Edition host Jade Hindman. KPBS reached out to Mayor Todd Gloria's office , but they did not immediately respond to a request for comment. When we come back , how college libraries are adjusting to today's new A.I. reality.
S6: I think that we are in new territory with the advent of ChatGPT in 2022 and everything that's happened since then , it's certainly disruptive technology for our profession. But hiding is not the answer.
S1: That's just ahead. On Midday edition. You're listening to KPBS Midday Edition. I'm Andrew Bracken in for Jade Hindman. From ChatGPT to Gemini , AI is popping up on laptops and phones across college campuses. The technology is making its mark in classrooms , syllabi , guidelines , even libraries. A 2023 report from Research Center Anthology found that students in the US are actively using generative AI tools. Nearly 40% of students say they use them at least once a month. Since April is School Library Month , we now turn to how college libraries are navigating the benefits and challenges of AI. Midday edition host Jade Heinemann spoke to some school librarians about the use of AI on their campuses.
S2: Joining me now is Ray Penn , academic and research librarian at Alden Graduate School of Education in Redwood City. Ray , thanks for being here. Yeah.
S7: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.
S2: Glad to have you here. And we're also joined by Lucy Campbell , electronic and continuing resources librarian at San Diego State University. Lucy , welcome.
S6: Thank you. It's a pleasure.
S2: So glad to have you here. And finally , Alison Gergen is online services librarian at San Diego Mesa College. Allison , welcome to you as well.
S4: It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.
S2: Glad to have you all. So , you know , college libraries have seen a lot of changing technology.
S7: It's been around as a discipline for a long time , since the 1950s. But for libraries , they've been looking at it to adapt in different ways for digitization , for chat bots , all sorts of projects that we've been seeing before the arrival of generative AI.
S2: But Lucy , does this feel like a big transition right now with generative AI ? Absolutely.
S6: I think that we are in new territory with the advent of ChatGPT in 2022 and everything that's happened since then , it's certainly disruptive technology for our profession. But hiding is not the answer. We have to work out how we can integrate these new tools into what we do. Yeah.
S2: Well then. So let's start with the advantages of AI for college libraries.
S8: For example , our students look at very long research articles for their research that they do. They can use instead of having to read through a 20 page article , they can put it through a generative AI model and get a summarization and decide , do I really want to dig my teeth into that item or do I not ? They can use it to narrow their topics. They can use it to find keywords for their for their searching. We can use it for more data analysis for the things that we do and the things that we need.
S2: AI , it can be a helpful tool , but what threats or challenges could it pose to college libraries ? Ray , I'll start with you on that one.
S7: Yeah , that is an opening a can of worms , because there's a lot of ethical considerations that we're talking in the field right now. So that includes tools that are surveilling and collecting data. These are third party vendors. Right. And so that means we have to be careful on what we're suggesting to our learners in terms of what information they're putting into the system and creating an account. And we've seen OpenAI having data breaches last year. And so what does that say right about these tools that could surveil and collect data for all kinds of purposes , being data brokers for example. So so I think those are some of the concerns as well as copyright , which really I'm seeing more and more as we all are lawsuits coming in. And what does that mean to use these tools that are taking proprietary information.
S2: And Lucy , anything you want to add to that ? I mean , what concerns do you have about AI use ? Yeah.
S6: Well , I think building on what Ray was saying about ethical , responsible use of AI that's also applicable in the classroom and in assignments. And that is something that we're seeing with students at Sdsu. They are just not necessarily clear about when and how they can use AI. I've done some instruction in the classroom with artificial intelligence tools , and students are reluctant to participate because they're not sure if this is actually cheating. Um , and that's something we found from surveying our students to Sdsu , did a huge student survey on AI at the beginning of this year and found that students had only 19% of their faculty actually encouraged use of AI in the classroom. So there is a general feeling of distrust around it. And that's one of the challenges. And I think also , you know , the fake sources and fake citations , this idea that AI is hallucinating and making up information is a concern. We've seen even OpenAI have said , you know , ChatGPT can get it wrong. It makes mistakes. Wow.
S2: I mean , it's , you know , so much has to catch up with technology , from policies to legislation to cybersecurity. I'm curious how AI has changed your policies on campus , Ray.
S7: It's an evolving document that I had an opportunity to work in a task force with a couple of faculty members in social science , as well as mathematics , as well as a graduate student who. Is becoming a teacher with a PhD in computer science , and we talked about this and trying to get feedback from our academic program committee and so forth , and we come up with a guideline that's evolving , which is about citing this tool , citing in a sense of attributions that you want to give , give that sort of a response as well as paraphrasing this tool. So it demonstrates your learning. And the whole point is that these tools are not meant to replace your own learning , but rather to be used responsibly to enhance your own learning and engagement.
S2:
S6: So there's been much more of a focus on the faculty and making sure the faculty understand these new tools. So Sdsu , they did a massive survey of the students , and they've prioritized faculty training by releasing a micro credential on academic applications of AI. And that's been piloted , I think that started in January. It's about four hours long for our faculty to complete. It's been hugely popular on campus , and now the institution is working on another micro credential , which will be more kind of focused on students and how students can use AI responsibly and ethically in their own kind of scholarship and learning practice.
S2:
S8: However , we also have the district as a whole that helps guide us. We all have various task forces at hand. It's in its infancy really at the ground level , but we see at the district level that they're starting to bring together different workshops and trainings and specific faculty to start guiding the creation of guidelines and policies. Also at the state level for the California community colleges. There's an AI council that's brought together with faculty and administrators to create guidelines and policies for the state of California , California community colleges to help.
S2:
S9:
S6: Things that they were talking about , I just attended an AI summit , and they were talking about how today , 40% of the workload that we do can already be done by current AI models. And these are the least powerful AI models we will see in our lifetimes. So there is definitely some concern amongst librarians , you know , oh , the robots taking our jobs. And the answer is , of course , no. I think that as our information landscape gets increasingly complex , we need information professionals more than ever , especially in academic arenas , because we need people who actually understand how these models are working. You know , for the most part , we use technology without considering what's actually happening. And we need people who do understand what's happening and how these interfaces are functioning. So I think that I'm very excited about the time saving possibilities for our workflows. For librarians , for example , reference and cataloging. We may be able to do some of that with an AI chat bot. And , you know , metadata enrichment can already happen with AI tools. But I think rather than that being a concern , what it does is it frees us up to create new knowledge , to develop our profession , to think more critically about the future of the information landscape and how discovery will happen here. Here.
S8: Here. To Lucy , yes , the use of AI in our workplace is going to really help us become more data driven. It's going to help us streamline what we do. It also will help us use the foundation of information literacy even more than we have before. I mean , students , they have intellectual freedom. They don't understand that there are filter bubbles out there providing them certain perspectives , but not all perspectives. They don't understand that there's censorship , removing controversial or sensitive content completely or algorithmic bias. That's only giving them what it's trained to give them and is leaving out perspectives and diversity. These are not going to go away. The need to understand how to use these tools , how to use them ethically is not going to go away. And it's our job.
S2:
S7: This is something I've been thinking a lot with , um , a graphic from that textbook from Matt Miller , which is about how we need to reframe our ideas of plagiarism and cheating because some of these usages might not be considered as cheating , necessarily , depending on the class itself. Right ? So , for example , if a student created a multiple AI response and then used the best parts and edited and then submitted it , is that part of cheating or plagiarism , depending on the guidelines ? Or do we need to also think about the relevancy to our students future or which. Of them would they be using as as an adult , meaning that would they consult AI tools like Wikipedia or search engines and then write something about it , or is it more like standardized ? So , so it's it's really , really different. And I'm hearing different programs like music and technology are saying , yes , you know , we want students to be experimenting with these tools , but English composition are saying no or neurosciences are saying yes , right , to a certain extent. So it seems like it's it's not clear there's no one solution for all necessarily. Yeah.
S2: Yeah.
S8: Really. We need to help our instructors understand what they can do to support their students using AI because they're using it and they can't stop them from using it , they're going to do that. The students we find are really using it to their benefit as well. I mean , plagiarism has existed throughout time , right ? There was there was encyclopedias before there was the computer. People were plagiarizing from those. Then there was Wikipedia , there was the internet in general. There's it's not like that's this is something different in that respect. However , the students can use it for good. They simply need to be guided on how I was. I was watching a panel of students the other day , and one of them was talking about how they use Grammarly with their writing , and this program helps them understand how to write better , and they found that they are now becoming a better writer because they're using that grammar tool. Same thing can happen with the research.
S2: You know , it's been said that AI is a tool that we have to embrace , much like the internet was. So how can this be a teachable opportunity for libraries ? Rachel tossed that one to you. Yeah.
S7: Yeah. So I had taught a seminar this past summer last year , and we had a chance to explore how to use this tool to interrogate what the responses come out with. Chat , GPT 3.5 with 4.0 , and I wanted them to as a small seminar to improve this. This response that came out from ChatGPT like what is culturally relevant pedagogy. And then we noticed that they didn't cite the source , the response itself. So then we would improve the citation , practice the the writing that where's the where's the evidence , who's the theorists , etc. and then it's a way for them to think about these tools not being perfect , right ? Because they're certainly not and certainly missing a lot of areas where we can teach students how to think about attribution , academic writing , evidence based sources , and so forth , and then building upon that kind of thinking that we we traditionally do in libraries , but using this as a way to also interrogate the tool itself that is not perfect and requires a lot of analysis and input from the user.
S2:
S6: I would say right now I have mostly questions and don't know exactly how it's going to affect libraries specifically because it's changing every day. But I know that this is a tool that's going to be valuable that we need to embrace , and that is going to make the librarian profession more important than ever.
S8: And I'm really excited about the possibilities of AI and the possibilities of our place on our campuses when it comes to using the tools and understanding the tools and creating the policies and guidelines for the tools , I think that we have a really great perspective to add to the conversation. Since we are curricular generalists , normally , most of us , it allows us to really be part of that conversation and help everyone understand what's going on better and add it to their practice.
S2: Wow , this has been a very interesting conversation. I've been speaking with Ray pun , academic and research librarian at the Alder Graduate School of Education. Ray thank you.
S7: Yeah , thank you so much.
S2: Also , Lucy Campbell , electronic and continuing resources librarian at San Diego State University. Lucy , thank. You.
S6: You. Thanks very much. This is really interesting.
S2: And also , Alison Jurgens , online services librarian at San Diego Mesa College. Allison , thank you.
S8: Thank you so much for having me.
S1: That's our show for today. Thanks for joining us. I'm Andrew Bracken in for Jade Hyneman. Have a great day , and we'll catch you next time.
