S1: It's time for Midday Edition on KPBS. Today we're talking about the ongoing legal challenges to diversity , equity and inclusion programs and how that's impacting businesses across San Diego County. I'm Jade Hindman with conversations that keep you informed and inspired and make you think. Ari and Simone from The Fearless Fund and Elizabeth Gaw from Hello Alice discuss the legal challenges to their grant programs for minority owned businesses.
S2: You know , we can't just say this is about one population. This is affecting all of us , and we need to be incredibly supportive of our folks who are fighting these fights.
S1: Then a legal analysis of these legal challenges and how they're impacting businesses across San Diego County. That's ahead on Midday Edition. And. Diversity , equity and inclusion are being challenged across the country. Last year , the Supreme Court gutted affirmative action and that ruling led to a wave of anti die lawsuits from conservative groups. Many of those lawsuits target specific Dei programs. So what do these legal challenges mean for women of color who are entrepreneurs ? I'm here with two business leaders who are navigating this new landscape. They'll be keynote speakers at this year's Women's Venture Summit , which aims to connect women entrepreneurs with investors. One of those speakers is Elizabeth Gore. She's the president and co-founder of the online platform. Hello , Alice. Elizabeth , welcome.
S2: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you all and and with Miss Arian.
S1: So glad to have you here. Also with us. Arian Simone. She is the CEO and founding partner of the Fearless Fund. Arian , welcome to you.
S3: Oh , thank you for having me. And happy to be here with Elizabeth as well. Yeah.
S1: So glad to have you both here. Before we get started , I was wondering if you if I could actually have you both tell us about your companies.
S3: We invest early stage so pre-seed seed and series A financing is where we pretty much focus our energy. We're heavy seed investors , and we came into existence because women of color are the most founded entrepreneurial demographic , but just the least funded.
S1: Um , and Elizabeth , you co-founded. Hello , Alice. I understand you support small and medium businesses.
S2: Thank you. Um , my co-founders , Kaelin Rods and Kelsey Ruger. We built hello , Alice to provide equitable access to capital , particularly credit and loans and grants to Main Street to the small businesses in America. So we serve 1.6 million small businesses , and we are so proud to be in all 50 states ensuring their financial health.
S1: And hello. Alice was recently involved in a class action lawsuit for awarding grants to ten black owned businesses. It was dismissed earlier this year. One of the details of the case and what was the final outcome.
S2: So we're we're super proud that we have ensured the whole capital continuum to our small business owners. And some small business owners need to start with grants and then move into credit secured credit loans and so on. We think grants are a critical part of our ecosystem as as Aaron has led as well. And we have done about $48 million in small business grants between 5000 to $50,000 with incredible partners. And we were sued for a specific program that was for African American small business owners who run commercial vehicle companies that we did in partnership with Progressive Auto , and we were sued by America First Legal , Stephen Miller. Based on those programs , we are very proud that we have come out the other side of that , a lawsuit with a win. But there's a lot more fighting to do and we aren't stopping here by any means.
S1:
S2: Yes. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. While the lawsuit was dismissed , I'm sure it still took a toll on the company. How did it impact you.
S2: Well let me count the ways. Um , you know I think first of all I wouldn't , I wouldn't shy away from how the methods of some of these individuals we were about to close. We are the recipient of amazing funds like Aaron Run. So venture capital. We were about to close our series C , and because of the class action suit , we were not able to close because of legal ramifications there. So , you know , it just crushed us. We had to lay off a substantial amount of our company. It was a scary time for us. Um , you know , there's as Adrian can share as well. There's this , um , emotional , physical toll and fear it takes. And then it's a full time job on top of a full time job. I mean , this is not just a case. It is a case about the rights of business owners in our country that we took very seriously. So , uh , it was brutal. It is brutal. Yeah.
S1: An area. And I want to pull you in here. The Fearless fund underwent a similar legal battle recently that. Well , it ultimately led to a settlement. And one of your grant programs shutting down.
S3: We got that removed because it would have shut us down like two weeks later. They also filed a preliminary injunction on one of our programs , similar to Even with Elizabeth. This is just one of many programs going on as well as they also , in our case , filed the court case itself against four companies alleging discrimination. We went to court on the preliminary injunction , not on the case itself and on that preliminary injunction. Again , it was only one grant left in this one program , and we actually wanted in the federal district court. It then got appealed and the plaintiff wanted in the appeals. So I basically said , okay , well , let's just see how long this time goes on before the Supreme Court appeals time is over , because I just I can't speak for the plaintiffs , but I can only assume they were looking to get a Supreme Court ruling like they had recently had a Supreme Court victory for higher education. So I said , you know what ? We're not going to the Supreme Court right now. The writing is kind of on the wall. Let's just see how this plays out. And if they're willing to dismiss the case , you know , for this grant program , concluding they just only had one grant left and we were able to come to an agreement and we got case dismissed. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. So it was a it was a strategic move then to sort of work on winning the war. Yeah. Exactly.
S3: Exactly. Like you can claim you won a battle , but we definitely won the war. So nobody else got harmed by any of the decisions or any consequences that would have come from a Skoda's ruling. And when I say we have many other programs. So yes.
S1: And the program we're talking about is your strivers Grant contest , which it's a grant program for black women owned businesses. It awarded up to $20,000. That lawsuit came from a conservative group founded by Ed Blum. Same guy who challenged affirmative action at the Supreme Court. Is that right , Ed Blum ? Yes.
S3: He's the same legal strategist that won the Supreme Court ruling to end affirmative action for higher education. and in our case , it was a company that he leaves American. Alliance for Equal Rights. That was the plaintiff in the case.
S1: Well , and , you know , these are just two examples of Dei programs and initiatives being targeted across the country. What are your thoughts on the current landscape for Dei , especially after your respective legal battles ? Erin , I'll toss that one to you.
S3: I think everybody just needs to hold their ground. And the reason why I say that because if everybody holds their ground , what else is there to do ? Just I don't like that people have reacted to this chilling effect or people are concerned. At the end of the day. Diversity is good business. So if you want to just use a business case to to justify the work that you're doing , it's already laid out. So everybody just needs to stand their ground. Yeah.
S1: Yeah.
S2: I mean , this is this is , you know , I , I am a capitalist. and the best way that we can again create jobs and move the economics of this country is ensure that money is getting a hand of the fastest growing populations in this country. And as Erin said , black women specifically are the most entrepreneurial in this country. Why wouldn't we ensure investment there ? And I also just wanted to denote , you know , there there it's not just stopping money that would have gone , you know , another lawsuit that I think is important to fight was the Restaurant Revitalization Act , where , uh , hundreds of millions of dollars was committed to small and medium restaurants to get back post-Covid. Those grants were committed , signed and in the PNL , and those were sued and pulled back. And so it's it's not just money that would have gone. It's money that's being retracted which which can collapse a business. And , you know , it was clear that the target where people of color and it also had since the whole entirety of the program stopped. It was women who lost money and even white male veterans. You know , we can't just say this is about one population. This is affecting all of us , and we need to be incredibly supportive of our folks who are fighting these fights.
S1: Yeah , well , there are policy proposals in project 2025 that aim to gut Dei completely. Uh , and just a reminder to our listeners , project 2025 is a handbook for what the next Republican president should do to roll back what they say are liberal policies.
S2: And I was thrilled to see that , thrilled to see that , you know , we're looking at , um , uh , BP has put forward a $50,000 tax credit to small businesses. And I and I think that is a testament that this is an important policy objective to ensure the success of in my world is Main Street. And then , you know , I like to think of Arya and his relationship as she takes the most successful entrepreneurs , the high growth entrepreneurs who , whether they're in high tech or med or so on , who are creating innovation investments in our country and takes them then to the next level. And so these policies are critical. I completely disagree with the focus on collapsing anything that's going to get the right economics to the right people , an area.
S1: And what are your thoughts on that ? Everything.
S3: I echo everything , Elizabeth said. And even the things that we've said thus far on the call in reference to the disruption it causes in the economy. I would also like to add , when you're referencing project 2025 , that it's not just even the AI , they're looking to remove civil rights , and to me that's very problematic as well as the law. They were trying to accuse and allege that we were in violation of was a civil rights law , which were actually put into place. And the law in particular , in my case , was put into place for the formerly enslaved to have economic freedom. And the reversal of that was just ironic and disturbing. So yes , this project 2025 agenda is problematic. I can also say that elections have consequences. This is me speaking personally. In our case , literally , we were had three rulings in a federal court case and then a total of judges that took place amongst these rulings. Four were Trump appointed , two were Clinton appointed , and one was Obama appointed. And all of the Trump appointed judges view this as if we were violating the law.
S1: Both of your programs do a great deal of creating equity for people of color and women owned businesses.
S3: And I would say that's the biggest pain point. That is the biggest pain point , of course , is entrepreneurs. There's cash flow management. There's you're looking at just lack of resources , mentorship , the ecosystem as a whole. But the biggest one is the capital. The numbers are alarming. Women of color receive 0.39% of VC funding , which is beyond alarming while making up over 20% of the US population. And it's unfortunate because women led companies outperform by 63%. So from a business case study , it's just like , why wouldn't you put the money where it makes best business sense ? Right.
S1:
S2: The vast majority of small businesses in America are self-funded and prior , particularly women , people of color in US veterans who don't have strong credit history , they are not able generally to get a small business loan in the first two years of their business. So we need to ensure that there are systems in place for equitable access to responsible credit is the other word I'll use , not predatory credit. And so when we have a $40 billion gap in the Bipoc community alone for applications , solid applications for SMB credit and loans. So it is something that I really think we need to tackle. It's a critical part of our economy and an area that we at Halliwell's are very focused on closing that gap.
S1: Well , you know , you both will be keynote speakers at the upcoming Women's Venture Summit.
S2: I think really what I want to tell them is to keep moving , keep going , keep fighting. I want them to take care of themselves , but stay inspired , keep leading their businesses and , you know , don't let any kind of intimidation move you out of business an area.
S1:
S3: Also , I definitely would want everybody to be more informed by listening to us on the reality of the efforts and attacks that are taking place , but not to be discouraged by them , but by any means. Yes , and I also want them to be fired up about this election.
S1:
S3: We had loans out that are backed by cdfis. Anywhere from 5000 to $250,000. Um , so that's a new initiative and program that we have going on. Um , as well as we look forward to our international expansion and our fun too. There is a dedicated pot , um , according to even our legal paperwork that can be allocated overseas. So we're looking to not just bridge the racial wealth gap that exists in the United States , but being able to get that to come a little bit closer in other parts of the world , too.
S1:
S2: And it's a free tool that any small business owner could come in on. Hallowell. Com and put in a data set. And we will rank the financial health of their business from 0 to 100. So it's a pre credit score tool that then helps that business do what they need to do to get their books ready , their business plans ready to then apply for capital. So we're super proud of that. That has launched. And we're going to be pushing that pretty hard this fall.
S1: All right. Well , I've been speaking with Elizabeth Gaw , Gore , president and co-founder of. Hello , Alice. Elizabeth , thanks for joining us.
S2: Oh , such a pleasure. Thanks you all.
S1: Also , Ariane Simone , CEO and founding partner of the Fearless Fund. Ariane , thanks so much for joining us.
S3: Oh , thank you for having me as well.
S1: Coming up , Donna DeBerry of the San Diego County Black Chamber of Commerce shares how local businesses are responding to the legal challenges facing diversity , equity and inclusion programs.
S4: We now have more businesses struggling. We have more businesses coming to us that feel like the door has been closed in their face , that they do not have the right support from companies and organizations. Hear more when.
S1: KPBS Midday Edition returns. You're listening to KPBS Midday Edition. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. As you just heard , there is nationwide pushback against diversity , equity and inclusion from conservative groups , and it's affecting programs for marginalized communities , even programs in San Diego County for businesses. I'm joined by Donna DeBerry. She's the president and CEO of the County of San Diego Black Chamber of Commerce. She's here to talk about existing support for local women of color who are entrepreneurs , and how this movement against Dei might affect them. Donna , welcome to midday.
S4: Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
S1: So glad to have you with us.
S4: However , the challenge with the community as it is right now , especially around underrepresented and underserved groups of people they're really facing , I would say , broad inequities such as broadband access , food insecurities , home ownership and businesses. And so , you know , we as a chamber are really looking at how do we help address those inequities and really kind of close this inequity gap , right.
S1: Well , black San Diegans face many barriers in securing support for their businesses.
S4: And what three of the biggest problems that the business community faces is lack of access to resources , to tools and to capital. And so when you think about right now , San Diego has a large scale economic need , but there's substantial equity gaps and a loss potential among black business owners that we must make sure that the public , the government , uh , philanthropic grants and investments can address these concerns and the needs in order for black owned businesses , not only just to stay relevant , but to be a part of the economic growth in this county.
S1: Well , there are a couple of programs at the Black Chamber of Commerce that really seek to bridge these gaps and support business owners from marginalized communities. Let's talk about them.
S4: Well , the Black Chamber mission is to create generational wealth through business , enterprise , education , employment and investing. And our goal is to support these businesses through their not just business , but even career and financial success , uh , which will result in this economic empowerment for our communities. in one of the programs that we have , and it's our largest program. It's called the Urban Business Resource Center. This program will connect our cohorts to an extensive network of entrepreneurs , mentors , courses , resources. A second one is the Emerging Entrepreneurs. And this is really focused on innovation of the next generation of entrepreneurial development. We do a lot of um , training. We guide , we inspire , and we connect diverse emerging entrepreneurs in San Diego with each other. And the goal there is really to create this startup ecosystem through the curriculum , mentoring , events , business discovery with added expertise from national and local business accelerator experts. And then the last one is really focused on women , our women of color. We actually call it the Women Kitchen Table , where we bring women from all backgrounds together and really address some of the not just social challenges that they have , but business challenges that that impact women very differently than the way they impact men. We also bring in mentors , other women who are successful to partner with , women who are having challenges in their business and also in their career.
S1:
S4: You know , for a long time , men in the small business have really when you think about the small business community as a whole across the country , It really was a lot of men who really started these startups. But now we're seeing the shift where over 51% of women owned businesses , so they're the larger demographic , yet they specifically are facing more inequities. And some of those inequities , like I said , are access to capital , access to mentors , and really access to a network. Um , so one of the things that we provide them is a network of , of women , a network of mentors and a network of people and organizations , other additional organizations that partner with us so that they can have access to , to help close those gaps and to really watch women of color owned businesses excel.
S1: Well , there are grant programs for black owned and women of color owned businesses trying to close some of those gaps you talk about , but they've been challenged and the target of some of these anti die cases. How do you see these challenges to D-ii programs affecting local women of color , business owners.
S4: With organizations and companies making a strong decision not to have Dei as a part of their culture , as a part of their company , is sending a strong , strong message to women business owners that they are not investing into making sure that women owned businesses are going to thrive. That is a big challenge. How do you expect them to achieve equal access to capital and equal access to opportunities , if you're not giving them the opportunity ? And so what happens right now is that when when companies have made the decision not to have Di as a part of their culture of the for the organization. What they've also said is that we're not going to provide access to women of color and other minority groups to have access to opportunities within their organization , especially for women of color. Many times , there are strategic challenges and systemic challenges within those organizations that doesn't allow them to flourish. It doesn't even allow them to compete.
S1: And , you know , they had a program that offers grants to black women owned businesses. It was challenged in court and they had no choice but to slash the program. And that is something happening across the country with Dei programs and departments. Are we also seeing this happen here in San Diego ? Absolutely.
S4: In the county of San Diego. We are seeing companies as we speak almost every day eliminating their DEA department. The backlash for that is that you're going to see less people. Um , not just from a business side of things , but you're also going to see people not being promoted. You're going to look at how attract or recruit and retain talent is not going to be at the same level. You'll start seeing a larger gap than you've ever seen before. And it also impacts small businesses. And what it does is perpetuates the struggles that small underserved and underrepresented businesses like women owned businesses will face. It just perpetuates the challenges.
S1:
S4: And what our goal is , if you think about that , our mission is to create generational wealth and to close that gap. We can't close the gap when companies are basically making the decision not to have a Dei program in place. It's very , very difficult. And how it is impacting the black chamber is that we now have more businesses struggling. We have more businesses coming to us that feel like the door has been closed in their face , that they do not have the the right support from companies and organizations. And so what they're asking us to do at the chamber is to be an advocate for them to help make a difference , and to ask companies to open up Dei again and to allow them to be able to compete for business opportunities within companies. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. In the case of the Fearless Fund , this is an organization run by black women. And the program was for black women. And so after having battled it out in court , the conclusion here is that it's illegal to even help yourself.
S4: And it doesn't make sense to me. Right ? We all should be helping one in ourselves and each other. And that's what doesn't make sense to me. The fact that somebody wants to help themselves and help other people to create parity and equity and a sense of belonging and inclusion , and you're willing to take that away when it can impact everybody , not just a particular certain demographic or group of people. It really does impact everyone. What they've said is that we're we're not willing to be inclusive. We're not willing to help each other and to give the type of support and access to all people.
S1: So what can the community do to support women of color who are launching businesses , in particular black owned businesses ? In the face of these challenges , you.
S4: Have elected officials that you have voted for. You specifically need to reach out to your elected official in your area and not only complain about it , but also have some solutions. Reach out to your elected official. Number two is find organizations like the County of San Diego Black Chamber , who are advocates and allies for your business who are supporting your business. All small businesses and three have the community rally around. Don't give up. Do not give up. Look for other opportunities in other ways. If you can't get through the front door because DNI is being dismantled.
S1: Donna , thank you so very much for joining us.
S4: You're welcome. Thank you.
S1: Still ahead , Attorney Dan Eaton walks us through his legal analysis of the current DEA landscape.
S5: A clear message from the Supreme Court , anyway , is that programs that tend to put a thumb on the scale in favor of a particular race or gender will be heavily scrutinized and could be subject to challenge.
S1: KPBS Midday Edition is back after the break. You're listening to KPBS Midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman. We've been talking about the legal challenges to diversity , equity and inclusion programs across the country. But what are the implications of these cases , and what could this all mean for the future of Dei and the Civil Rights Act ? Here to give us the legal overview is Dan Eaton. He's a legal analyst and attorney with the San Diego law firm seltzer. Kaplan. McMahon. Vitek. Dan , as always , it's good to have you on the show.
S5: Good to be with you , Jade.
S1: So , okay. It's been over a year since the Supreme Court struck down affirmative action at universities , but we've seen at least 68 new anti die lawsuits filed since that decision , according to New York University's Meltzer Center for diversity , Inclusion and Belonging.
S5: Case called Muldrow versus the City of Saint Louis , which talked about how much harm a person who is suing for discrimination must show in order to have a viable claim. The clear message from the Supreme Court , anyway , is that programs that tend to put a thumb on the scale in favor of a particular race or gender will be heavily scrutinized and could be subject to challenge. That's why you're seeing all of these lawsuits , because , of course , the Supreme Court is the the final say with respect to federal law. And this is a logical extension of pressing the boundaries of what the Supreme Court's recent rulings really mean for Dei programs.
S1:
S5: And the reason this all comes up is you say , well , wait , what does college admissions have to do with Dei in the workplace ? And one of the reasons is because Justice Neil Gorsuch , who , of course , was Donald Trump's first appointee , the Supreme Court said , wait , title six and title seven are essentially indistinguishable with respect to their anti-discrimination laws and language , and therefore they ought to be applied the same way. Of course , title seven is provision that deals with workplace discrimination , and the tea leaves were set and these challenges were triggered as a result , in part of Justice Gorsuch's concurrence in the college admissions case.
S1: Well , let's rewind a little bit.
S5: That's why affirmative action , this additional action was actually put in place. The thinking is to why it has been attacked and challenged , and why the Supreme Court has reevaluated. It is because of a sense , at least by the majority of the Supreme Court , that things have changed and that the law really has to , uh , has to revert to what a majority of the Supreme Court believes is required with respect to color blindness and gender blindness with respect to workplace policies. All of that said , we are talking at a snapshot in time , and that's all we can talk about with respect to law and with respect to these commercial forces. The fact is that if you look at the course of history , there are swings back and forth , and the situation now with respect to dye is not likely to be the situation ten , 15 , 20 years from now.
S1:
S5: We won't really know of the effect until , uh , another , uh , few years. We're already seeing , of course , immediately with respect to college admissions and certain reductions in , for example , the enrollment of African Americans at certain elite schools. But with respect to the workplace and with respect to , for example , entrepreneurial programs , it's a little harder to tell because it's a little harder to tell because it's hard to measure the impact in the first place. If it's hard to measure the impact of these Dei initiatives in the first place , it's even harder to tell the impact of removing these various initiatives , and it's hard to tell whether there are alternative efforts to foster Dei that will withstand legal challenges that have not yet been emerged. Yeah.
S1: Yeah.
S5: And when you say chipping away , that really depends on what a particular individual's view of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 really is. We just celebrated , of course , a milestone anniversary in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. And it is very clear that as we have evolved , and particularly these last couple of years , with respect to the issue of affirmative action , that the act is not being applied in exactly the same way today as it was as recently as five years ago.
S1:
S5: The only the only thing that really has changed is that those who are definitively interpreting them. And so it really depends. It ultimately is going to depend on the judgment that is brought to these cases and understand that the law is not the only force that's involved in this day. Among other things , you read stories very recently in the press about a range of companies , from truck supply to to Lowes to Ford Motor Company that are reevaluating their DUI programs not only because of the unsettled legal environment , but also because of pushback they are getting from certain customers as a result of certain social media activity by a person by the name of Robby Starbuck. That is saying customers look at what these companies are doing with respect to die. Do you really want to support these kinds of companies ? So we understand that the pressures are not only legal , but they are also in the marketplace , all of which are putting pressure on at least some versions of Dei programs.
S1: Well , earlier in the show , we spoke with Ariane Simone from the Fearless Fund , as well as Elizabeth Gore from Hello Alice about their respective legal battles over their grant programs , which provide venture capital to women entrepreneurs and people of color. Do you think we'll be seeing more of these legal challenges on specific programs like that and D-ii programs , or will it go beyond that ? Well , yeah.
S5: I mean , that's really the critical issue. The answer to your first question is , yes , we are going to see more challenges to programs that are specifically targeted at specific groups of individuals. The question is how far does that go ? Are we talking about grants or programs , even that call for a special mentoring and networking opportunities also going to be subject to challenge because they , by definition , may exclude people who traditionally have not needed sort of this additional help because they are so well represented in the workplace. That's the critical question. In other words , when we start talking about Dei programs that don't involve specifically Money or specifically particular job opportunities. That's where things get very murky , very interesting. At May. Challenge and limit the scope of Dei , even from what we understand it to be today.
S1: Very interesting. Well , I want to dig more into the current landscape of Di. Conservative backlash against Di is also affecting workplace policy. Companies are scaling back on their efforts. Entire departments are being slashed.
S5: And one of the issues we talked about on the very first day of class was about this issue of a companies like Truck Supply Company and Ford and Lowes that are looking at Evaluating their Dei programs. The company that makes Jack Daniels is also looking at it because they have a conservative customer bases , or they're getting other pushback. And that's what's very interesting , because we're not just talking about the forces of the law that are shaping the AI. We are also talking about this broader , if you want to call it backlash. It seems to be a targeted backlash based on particular companies customer bases. And you can expect that that will expand as more and more companies are targeted with respect to their Dei programs , even Dei programs that , under the current legal landscape , could be considered lawful.
S6: Well , what do.
S1:
S5: I don't have a crystal ball , so I can't say. But I can say a couple of things. First , it will be very interesting the extent to which the law really gets involved in extinguishing some of the things that we traditionally have understood as appropriate Dei initiatives , and we just don't know the answer to that question. The second thing that I am looking at is the extent to which commercial forces themselves have a role in eliminating or revising Dei. The combination of those two things will be critical to watch in the coming days and years , as we look forward to what Dei means in the days and weeks ahead. Certainly , there will continue to be efforts to diversify workforces that will not stop , but the means through which that accomplish will be accomplished undoubtedly will change.
S6:
S1: You saying that diversity efforts will undoubtedly continue , but what makes you think that given that affirmative action and Dei legislation , at least affirmative action , it had to be legislated on a federal level because programs , because workforces were so anti diversity , they discriminated so much that there had to be federal laws put in place to ensure that that discrimination stopped. And so now that that's gone , now that Dei programs are being attacked.
S5: Of course. Uh , a lot of what you were just discussing relates to what our President , Lyndon Johnson , did in issuing various regulations related to freedom of action. Interestingly , efforts that continued under President Richard Nixon. Some of those programs are no longer going to end up being viable. But there are consultants that say , and and Joan Williams is one who's very respected , uh , very respected workplace consultant suggests that. And I'm quoting here from her quote , the most effective approach to die is also the best for controlling legal risk. Focus your die program on interrupting the bias that's constantly transmitted through basic business systems. This is how most corporate die programs would typically focus on trainings and tweaks to organizational system to level the playing field. Already worth close quote. Now that that what I just read , which is from an essay , uh , is very broad and conceptual , but there are details that are available that. That companies can use to continue their efforts to diversify the workforce. That at least reduce , although it will never entirely eliminate the legal threat , separate and apart from the commercial threat to ongoing Dei efforts.
S1: I've been speaking with Dan Eaton , legal analyst and attorney with the San Diego law firm seltzer , Kaplan , McMahon. Vitek. Dan , thank you very much.
S5: Thank you. Jade.
S1: That's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
