S1: Welcome in San Diego , it's Jade Hindman. Today we're talking about being more resilient as the climate changes. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. It's NPR's Climate Solutions Week , and this year , the theme is Rethinking Home how our communities can be more resilient to climate change. Up in Escondido , one developer has built the country's first wildfire resistant neighborhood. Dixon Trail includes double pained windows , fire resistant shutters and healthy buffers between homes. Many experts say efforts like these are the future of climate resistant housing , but not everyone can afford to move into a new fireproof proof home , making existing homes fire ready as a whole. Different challenge. And one program is retrofitting homes in fire prone areas across the state. Joining me to talk about it is Jay Lopez. He's the executive director of the California Wildfire Mitigation Program. Jay , welcome to Midday Edition.
S2: Thank you for having me.
S1: Glad to have you on. So tell me , how exactly does one go about fire proofing a home ? This is a bit more than just fire resistant. Correct ? Correct.
S2: Yeah it is. Many roads have been taken in this matter since it's fairly new to retrofit a home for wildfire mitigation. But the best way to do is to do an assessment of the comforts of what is the need of the home. So you have the possibility to have flame impingement , have a possibility to have embers in your house and then select the materials to that will perform the best with that. Um , a simple little thing that can be done is that a defense. Defense in our house nowadays is or. The houses were built before 2008 where one quarter of an inch went , uh , calls. Now we recommend to have one eighth of an inch or 1/16 of an inch. Mm.
S1: Mm. Interesting.
S2: And the state fire marshal has a list. It's the building , uh , material list that they post on the state fire marshal website. And that's the list that I highly recommend that is used for this. There's quite a bit of , uh , metal , uh , vents or metal structures or things like that out there. I highly recommend to look at the building material list that the , um , state fire marshal and go from there. So you will have events that are probably the first investment that you can do , um , with the less cost , with the most efficiency. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. All right. Well , let's talk about your house , because your own home in Altadena survived two fires , the station fire in 2009 and the recent Eaton fire in January.
S2: Uh , the vegetation , um , the people who were in my house before , they were very good , growing almost everything. So I had bougainvillea , jacaranda and quite , uh , luscious vegetation throughout the home. So I had to remove some of them , uh , to create a space between my house and the vegetation. Uh , the lot is a small lot , so it's on one side. I have a home that is about 30ft , and the other side , I have a home that is about 50ft. So with that is small space. Um , the defensible space is critical. So that's the first part that I started with. Um , and removing some of the vegetation in there also took cups. An incredible view of my home. It has an incredible view to the canyon and to the mountains. I wanted to harness that so removing some of the vegetation. Then after that I started to work on the house itself.
S1: Well , it sounds like a beautiful location for sure. Um , you know , the aftermath of the recent LA wildfires. You know , we saw a lot of fireplaces standing tall , actually , in the rubble of those homes.
S2: The the. We know there's a home that is properly built , and the new homes after 2008 are building with the latest building standards. That's the best way to go. So one of the things to look at is how you can take an older home and take it to the current standards. The thing is , that cannot be done in one day. I started my home as a 1960 home , uh , ranch style and slowly changing it. So I started about five years ago , slowly moving , making those modifications and drying up. I'm almost there. I replace the roof and close the eaves in , install fire and flame resistant vents , and then , uh , also created a sun zero the space around the house with no vegetation or nothing to land embers to land in there. Um , and that takes time. So it's not something that you do from one day to the next. Uh , you gotta be patient.
S1: You know , I also want to talk about your statewide effort to retrofit homes. And that includes fire prone areas in San Diego County like Del Campo and Potrero. And your program is really just getting off the ground.
S2: If you were to go until , John and Mary are 75 years old until I'm calling you home. They will say , what is it and where do I start ? Uh , same thing John and Mary that are 25 years old. They just bought their new house. Uh , it's same idea. So our goal with our program is to make the understanding of prioritization of home hardening. Uh , better. Also , uh , we have a report that we presented to the legislature and , uh , 2028 , but the goal is to have it before that in what is what it takes to , uh , retrofit a home by doing the work. Uh , with the grants that we have right now , by doing the work we discover and all those little items that we need to take care of. So you work to enclose your eaves right now ? Um , and you go to the building department and ask for a permit for closing the eaves. Uh , it's not something that is in the books yet. Uh , so we're working on trying to get that done. So Most of the local government and state and counties only give permits when you have a major repair , like changing the whole roof or remodeling more than 50% of your home. But you change a window here and a window there and all that. Not not in there. So that's one thing. The other thing is contractors. The contractors are great to know what the latest building standards are applied to a new home , but retrofits are a little more challenging for them. So we're working on trying to educate the contractors as well. Actually , it's a bill right now that will require , um , Cal Fire to provide training , and we will have qualified contractors certify contractors to do retrofit work in older homes. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And so these are statewide programs , but is there anything someone can do to to harden their home in the short term that doesn't require thousands of dollars ? Absolutely.
S2: So , um , the first thing that I would recommend go to Cal Fire website and you can put home code in. They have a low cost retrofit list , and you can get some of the ideas and materials from there. Uh , as we know , embers is we finding out on working with more data that we're saving. The embers are a big , um , component of fire ignition of a home. So vents are eighth of an inch , vents 16 of an inch , vents , uh , in your foundation or your attic , uh , is is a great , great start. And you can get those vents as low as ten , $15. Wow.
S1: Wow.
S2: Uh , one of the things that we're finding out is the benefit from wildfire protection also benefits in the as it relates to heat and extreme heat. So for the environment itself , first inside the home , um , the home cabin , double pane windows or at least one tempered glass , uh , really change the conditions inside the home , which at the same time really change how much you use your air conditioning , which at the same time is how much resources you you are needing to have out there. Um , also the in the landscape , in landscape and how you manage landscaping with less water but more , uh , fire protection. Uh , that's something that our program is working on developing and sharing with everybody. We created a framework that will be available for everybody to follow , um , the road that we took and our roadmap and achieve. resiliency for each home. Right.
S1: Right. Wow. Well , you certainly have a great program going. Uh , and thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. I've been speaking with Jay Lopez. He is the executive director of the California Wildfire Mitigation Program. And again , Jay , thank you so much.
S2: My pleasure. Thank you.
S1: Still ahead , centering climate change around education policies and where we live.
S3: They're not really accustomed to thinking of these big fires happening right in urban areas. And it means that we've got a lot of public education to do and a lot of consciousness raising about the risks and how to avoid them.
S1: KPBS Midday Edition is back after the break. Welcome back to KPBS midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman. As our planet heats up , we're seeing the changes right here at home. Extreme droughts , atmospheric rivers and wildfire risks all impact where and how we live. I'm joined now by two experts who published an op ed in the San Diego Union-Tribune shortly after the LA wildfires earlier this year. It's all about how California should adapt to the new climate era to limit wildfire threat. Joining me is Tom Corringham. He's an economist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography. Tom , welcome.
S4: Thanks , Jade. Good to be with you.
S1: Glad to have you here. Also , Kerry , though he's a retired land use lawyer and writer. Kerry , welcome to you.
S4: Thank you.
S1: So , Tom , I'm going to start with you. We often hear about the warming climate from a 40,000 foot view. But what effects are we seeing on communities right here in San Diego ? Sure.
S4: Well , as you say , the climate is warming because of human caused greenhouse gas emissions from the burning of fossil fuels. And here in San Diego , what that looks like is higher temperatures , drying landscapes so that can lead to more intense and more frequent wildfires. And longer term , we're looking at sea level rise , which can affect our coastline and our port. So a number of different impacts because of the changing climate , right.
S1: Kerry as wildfires spreads into urban areas , there's both an increased safety risk to humans and a heightened risk of more fires. Many wildfires start from human activity.
S3: It can be anything from sparking from machinery being used to power lines sparking in the wind. Backyard barbecues. Putting out sparks lots of ways that people can inadvertently or negligently start wildfires in urban areas , which is not what we're accustomed to , but that we really saw happen on a very dramatic scale up in the Los Angeles area recently. It's an issue that people have to get used to. They're not really accustomed to thinking of these big fires happening right in urban areas , and it means that we've got a lot of public education to do and a lot of consciousness raising about the risks and how to avoid them.
S1:
S4: Uh , there are other challenges with , uh , rising sea levels. We're going to see increased damages along the coast with increased heat. We're going to see increased air conditioning usage and increased energy bills. So a number of different economic impacts of climate change there.
S1: All right. Well , so Carrie , let's get into some solutions. We certainly know what all the problems are. In our last segment we actually heard from someone working to fireproof homes across California. That's one way for California residents to to better adapt.
S3: On the cost of retrofitting so many structures. Uh , even if you , uh , limit it to areas that are considered high fire risk areas , uh , you're talking about thousands of dollars of cost to really effectively fireproof homes and of course , much more for larger commercial structures. That's not an easy thing for most property owners to absorb. And the public funding , frankly , just isn't there for that today. The other problem is that even if you can build new structures that are more fire resistant and can , uh , fireproof or at least begin to fireproof the existing structures when there is a fire , it's not going to be limited to the area where it starts. Wind topography. All kinds of conditions can cause a fire to sweep out of its point of origin , and go into many other areas that may not be so prepared to deal with it. Uh , and that's what we saw in Los Angeles , too , but also in some of the big fires that we had here in the San Diego region in the past , Path that they started in a high risk area , but then swept into areas that were much considered , much less vulnerable. And yet they burned , uh , very severely. So these are big challenges , both financial and from a public acceptance standpoint , that are going to have to be dealt with.
S1:
S4: I think a few things can be done to mitigate the risk of wildfire. One , as you mentioned , is fireproofing homes , and not everyone can afford this. As Kerry mentioned , it's expensive. So there may be , uh , scope for providing subsidies or incentives for folks to retrofit their homes and fireproof their homes. One thing that's really important is clearing defensible space around one's property. If if you live in an area that's , uh , next to the wildlands or within the wildlands. So clearing defensible space is critical. And there are other things that that can be done from a policy standpoint. Just , uh , thinning fuels in our backcountry. Building firebreaks. So there are a number of things that can be done from a policy standpoint and by individual homeowners.
S1: Well , Kerry , you know , in your piece , you argue that new development should be tightly regulated and high fire risk and flood prone areas.
S3: And insurers in many places now are refusing to insure new construction in those areas. So we need to start thinking about the same kind of issues with regard to fire sensitivity. We've argued for a long time about whether new development should be allowed in the wildland urban interface area. Just as a starting point , and I think there's a consensus developing that even though people love living in those areas , it's it's too dangerous and it's an unfair burden to put on the rest of us to effectively protect the people who choose to live there. So I think we're going to start to see stricter regulation in that regard. Local governments are already supposed to be considering climate impacts in their long range planning , so they should be using things like fire sensitivity as a factor in where they allow new development to occur and after a fire , where they're going to allow rebuilding. The state already requires the local and regional planning agencies to have plans in place to mitigate these kinds of risks , but unfortunately , many of those jurisdictions either don't have plans in place or they have very antiquated plans. Uh , the um , Cal Fire just recently issued new fire maps showing high risk areas , which we've been pleading with them to do for a long time and which had not been done literally in decades. So we're we're gradually seeing , planning , catching up with the the level of risk involved , but there's still a lot of updating that's needed on on planning and regulation.
S1: Well , here's a question I have because , you know , there's no doubt that some areas are more vulnerable to wildfire than others , but something I thought I would never see was that LA wildfire , where the flames went all the way to the coast.
S4: Um , I recall the the fire spreading through , uh , Rancho Santa Fe and almost reaching , almost reaching the coast then. I mean , these are catastrophic fires that we've seen recently in Los Angeles. Not anything that I really expected to see this soon. I think climate scientists have been have been ringing the alarm bell for a long time and saying , this is what we're going to see coming up in the future , but it's happening much faster than I think anyone expected. And that's really sobering. So what's happening is that the landscapes are drying out. We're seeing rainfall later in the season , the human caused fires are still continuing , and as population increases , we're going to see more of these human , human caused fire starts. So it's really a collection of of factors that are coming into play here. One other factor is that for 100 years we've we've pursued a policy of complete suppression. So we've seen massive growth of of fuels in our forested areas and in , in the chaparral in the backcountry. So fuel thinning is needed , whether that's through prescribed burns or mechanical thinning. There are a lot of things that we can do. We know we know what to do. It's really just a matter of taking the action , setting aside the funding to do what needs to be done. And , as Kerry said , limiting new development in these areas. We need to be smart about what we do going forward because the population is continuing to grow. We just need to make sure we're doing it in a smart way.
S1:
S3: And I would just add a couple of points that because of climate change , the conditions that we're living in , of course , are hotter and drier. So that means that when there are fires and they're more likely to be fires than there have been in the past , and when there are fires , there going to be hotter fires. They're going to spread more quickly. Are they're going to be more susceptible to to winds pushing them into , uh , larger areas that weren't considered high risk before. So when you look at what happened in Pacific Palisades or Altadena in Los Angeles , you see areas that nobody other than maybe a handful of scientists thought of as high risk areas. And yet look at the devastation that they experienced. So sad to say , that's the future. Uh , unless we take really dramatic action and , you know , people being people , it probably won't happen as nearly as fast as it needs to. Wow.
S1: Wow.
S4: Uh , our coastal topography means we're less susceptible to sea level rise than places like Florida or , for example , New Orleans or , uh , Miami , the Carolinas , on on the Gulf Coast and the eastern seaboard. Uh , that's not to say that there's no vulnerability. Uh , we are , you know , as sea levels rise , everyone on the coast is going to be affected. I think , uh , in San Diego , the we have a special risk , which is the heat in our back country and our in our desert regions of the county. So where can we look to ? I mean , there are other places in the world that are dealing with similar , similar issues. The other Mediterranean climates around the world , whether it's in South America , Australia , the Mediterranean , South Africa. So recently in South Africa , they had a tremendous drought with a de zero that was projected where they were going to run out of water. So there are other places in the world that are facing similar challenges , and I think we can learn from them and they can learn from us.
S1: Kerry , you know , there's also the cost of living factor here. And we all know San Diego is one of the most expensive places to live.
S3: Uh , building fireproof homes is going to be more expensive. Retrofitting existing homes is going to add cost. Insurance premiums are going to go up. If you can get the insurance at all. Um , mortgages will become more expensive. Again , if you can get them at all. So for all these reasons , the cost of living mainly relating to housing is bound to go up and that will only place even greater restrictions on who can afford to live in a place like San Diego. Over time , that may improve if enough additional housing is built. But again , it's a conundrum because we're also talking about restricting development in more areas , especially ones that historically have been where a lot of the development took place , that is in the backcountry and in in the East County areas and so on , where land was cheaper and it was possible to build of larger housing developments. So you can see from all of those factors that the cost of living , driven especially by housing related costs , is bound to go up and is only going to make it harder for average people to afford to live in a place like San Diego. Hmm.
S1: Hmm.
S4: So just understanding how the climate is changing in San Diego and continuing with our basic research is important , but there are steps that we can take. I think we've mentioned some of them are fuel management , fire resistant building codes. When it comes to wildfire in terms of extreme heat , we can invest in urban greening , planting more drought tolerant trees , putting in cool roofs and cool pavements throughout our urban areas , um , building cooling centers. And in terms of sea level rise , we could invest in living shorelines. So using natural infrastructure like oyster reefs , dunes and wetlands. And in some cases , we're going to have to think very seriously about community driven relocation , moving people out of harm's way.
S1:
S4: I think , you know , we can we can put all the Band-Aids we want on this , but unless we tackle the root cause , things are just going to continue to spiral out of control. So so I think that has to be a top priority. That said , we're already pretty far in now , and we do need to be doing everything we can to protect the most vulnerable among us from these climate impacts.
S3: Yeah , that's really a key point that we have to acknowledge that we're not starting from scratch here. We already are facing huge climate change impacts. So a big part of the discussion has to be how we adapt to what's already happening or what's likely to happen in the near future. And as Tom mentions , there are certain communities that are especially vulnerable. These tend to be lower income communities where there is less tree cover , more hardscape that absorbs heat , fewer parks and open spaces for recreation , and so on. And we're just going to have to focus as much on adaptation , I think , going forward as on prevention , both for the survival of our communities and , frankly , to ensure a little greater equity in in who's being protected or impacted.
S1: I've been speaking with Tom Corringham. He's an economist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography. Tom , thank you so much.
S4: Thank you. It's a pleasure.
S1: And also Cory Low. He's a retired land use lawyer and writer. Carrie. Thank you.
S3: Thanks for having me.
S1: That's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
