Exploring San Diego's 'sober curious' scene

S1: Welcome in San Diego , it's Jade Hindman. On today's show , we'll tell you about the sober , curious movement and then introduce you to people who are creating space and options for people who are cutting back on alcohol. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. While more research is needed , studies suggest alcohol increases the risk for colorectal cancer. In fact , the U.S. Surgeon General recommends putting a warning label on all alcoholic beverages to let consumers know consumption can cause a number of cancers. And perhaps that's why there's a growing interest in something called the sober curious movement , which is a movement of people finding ways to lower or abstain from alcohol. In fact , videos of alternative drinks like mocktails receive some of the highest engagement on social media platforms. So my next guest are creating products and spaces to support a sober , curious lifestyle. Kaylee and Crystal Clark are from Good News Bar in San Diego. Kaley. Crystal. Welcome.

S2: Thank you for having us.

S1: Glad you all are here. Also , Kale Bowman , the founder of a new San Diego drink company. Narnia as in Narnia business. Cale , welcome to you.

S3: Thanks for having me.

S1:

S2: Curious references people who are reevaluating their relationship with alcohol. We personally , Kaylee and I identify as alcohol free. Um , we decided to step away from alcohol a few years ago as we found it was no longer serving us and turning us down a destructive path. And so when it comes to our our bar , we hope to have guests from the sober serious to the sober curious spectrum everywhere in between. People deserve to have a space that's elevated , that's open in the evening , that can cater to people that choose not to drink alcohol for whatever their reason may be.

S1: So there seems , though , there's an entire spectrum here of various statuses that people sit at when it comes to drinking alcohol. So it's sober , curious. It's alcohol. What is it ? Tell me the go through the go through the whole spectrum for me. Yeah.

S2: Yeah. So it can be anywhere from people taking a night off drinking because of , say , they're running a marathon and they want to take their , you know , their marathon seriously. Or it could be because of a medication that someone's on. So it could be anywhere from sober , curious to a certain amount of time that they are stopping drinking all the way to those that are perhaps in recovery , which is where Kelly and I fall in line.

S1: All right.

S3: Some are on people that are within recovery , and I think there's a lot of people that would find themselves in being sober , curious , but maybe they would never call themselves sober curious. I often hear people say , well , you know , I'm never going to become sober , so I'm not necessarily sober. Curious. I think at Narnia , we almost like to say it's more of being mindful of what you're drinking or not. Maybe one night you want to drink. One night you don't want to drink one night. You just want to have something that's in between because you have to drive home or you have an early morning. And I think there's a lot of people out there in the market that are interested still in maintaining some sort of lifestyle around alcohol , but then there being a lot more cautious of how they consume alcohol. Um , especially for people like myself who , you know , spend a lot of their youth drinking and as I get older and older is trying to find a balance between the two , because I think it's hard for a lot of people to figure out what's right for them. And that's ultimately what we want to do is just make people comfortable with what they have.

S1: And that makes sense , right ? Because a hangover at 20 is much different than a hangover at 40. You know , the recovery is not the same. But surprisingly , it seems that Gen Zers are the ones who are really moving away from alcohol consumption the fastest.

S4: And so I feel like for us in like the mid 30s. You know , the generations above us may have smoked tobacco more. And then we kind of saw that in a different perspective. And so I think that , like Kael said , people are just being more mindful and thinking , why am I reaching for this drink ? Or what's the intention behind it instead of just doing it because that's what everyone's doing or it's the only option.

S1: And kale.

S3: Yeah , I also think there's a huge part of that that's also influenced by the younger generation and social media. I think a lot of people have a lot of opportunities to put out there in the world what they're doing , whether it's personally , professionally , a mix between the two. So I think with that is people are starting to hear people that they don't need to go out on a Friday night and drink , or they have different aspirations that they want to achieve , and maybe alcohol just doesn't fit into those aspirations in some way , shape or form. So yeah , with the younger generations , I have my , um , my wife , her two siblings. They're 19 , in college , and when I compared their college experience to my college experience , it's night and day. People are drinking a lot less , there being a lot more health conscious. And I think it's a combination of , yeah , younger generation. And I love the analogy with cigarettes because I think people , since there's so much more information out there , they know it's not healthy for them to some capacity.

S1:

S4: Um , But I don't. I feel like the younger generation is already on that wave , where it just kind of adds to it and it may open other people's eyes. But yeah , I feel like it's something that we've kind of all known.

S1: Yeah , and so is it. For all of those reasons we just talked about , that you all are creating beverages and spaces for people to practice sobriety.

S4: Yeah , I think the main thing , especially for us , and I believe for kale too , is just inclusivity is what it comes down to and providing everyone an option. And like for us , you know , we're almost four years sober and , you know , three years ago there was no options at bars and restaurants. And it's been really cool to see , you know , you go to a sporting event and you can have a non-alcoholic beer and it's just it makes you feel seen and it makes you feel like there's an elevated option for you instead of you being an afterthought. And I feel like that's what kale is doing with providing different tiers for people , too , is like , you're including everyone in something. And so for us , inclusion is kind of what creating this space is about.

S1:

S3: Inclusivity as we when we started the brand is I personally and along with some friends as we were just taking a month or two off drinking and everyone was so curious as to why we weren't drinking , and I think that just sparked something into me is why does it why does it matter ? You know , we have I have friends that are sober. I have friends that still have lead drink , I have friends that are in the middle. And I think there's an opportunity in the market where there's people that going back to the younger generations is we don't care. Like we don't care what you do. We don't care what you drink. I think a big thing for a lot of communities is just do whatever makes you happy , do whatever you think is right for yourself. And that's ultimately what we want to do. And I think there's a really interesting , um , metric out there that it's something around 83 , 84% of people that are also buying non-alcoholic drinks , they buy alcoholic drinks too. So there's this huge spectrum of people that are out there and they want to be sober , curious , they want to be mindful of it. And for us is we want to provide the opportunity for you want to drink ? Great. You don't want to drink , you don't have to. And we really want to limit any sort of judgment or social norms around that.

S1: You mentioned people who buy , you know , some of the non-alcoholic beverages , also buy alcoholic beverages. And it's about mindfulness. So my question is like , are there some health benefits to drinking some of the non-alcoholic beverages that you all are aware of. Yeah.

S4: Yeah. So ones that we heavily put on our menu are adaptogenic and nootropics. So they're what they call functional beverages. So we like to serve things even some things with CBD that provide health properties. And that's what we've noticed. We've been doing pop ups for almost two years , and that's what people want. They want something that is going to be good for them. That also tastes great and is elevated.

S1: Coming up , this social culture around drinking and how people who are cutting back navigate it.

S3:

S1: You're listening to KPBS Midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman. Today we're talking about the sober , curious movement , which has led some to re-evaluate their relationship with alcohol. I'm speaking with Kayleigh and Crystal Clarke from Good News Bar , along with Kayleigh Bowman from Narnia. So , Kayleigh , I'd like to hear more about the spaces and beverages you all are creating. So first tell me about Good News Bar and how it got started. Yeah.

S4: Yeah. So Crystal and I like I said , you know , we stopped drinking almost four years ago. We've been bartenders for about the past decade. And so that's something that was kind of a norm in that industry and encouraged was , you know , drinking daily and and so when we stopped , we continued to bartend and we felt a little out of place. We didn't really feel like there were spaces for us to go. And it seemed like there was a gap. There was coffee shops that closed , you know , early in the evening , and then there were bars , and there was really nothing that encouraged us to want to go hang out and meet other like minded people who were in the same spot in life. And so we were living in Oregon at the time in a small mountain town , and we moved out to San Diego , and we assumed there was probably a non-alcoholic bar or something like that here , there in LA , San Francisco , and they're actually all over the world. And so we did a little bit of research. We were just looking somewhere to go out one night and um , we couldn't find anything. So that was in about November of 2022. And uh , we decided to start good news at that point and just started with doing pop ups and have been doing pop ups for the past couple of years and , uh , found our brick and mortar in July and so have been through city permitting and building that out and also maintaining events throughout that so that we can provide options for people to go do things while the bar's under construction. Wow.

S1: Wow. Well , congratulations to you on that. Um , kale , you got your company , Nonya. Tell me about it and how you came up with the idea for it.

S3: Yeah , I think it all started at the beginning of 2024 , is a few of my friends and I , we did Sober January , and then that led into us not drinking in February. And what we found is when we were at parties , carrying around a solo cup or drinking some sort of water is people really quickly noticed we weren't drinking and wanted to know why , you know , why aren't you participating tonight ? Come on , just play a game or two.

S1: And even if you've got the Red Cup. Exactly , you've got the red solo cup. Exactly.

S3: Exactly. If everyone had beer and then ours looked a little orange or pink , they were like , okay , you're definitely not drinking alcohol in a way. So yeah. So people people are just natively curious. And I think it's also , you know , if they're drinking , they want you to drink too. So I started to notice that. And then there was also a article that I read that was something that back in the 1960s , 70s , before Heineken came up , is the largest percentage of an alcohol of a beer was around like 3%. So it started to make me think , why is there only alcohol and non-alcoholic ? Why isn't there a 2% in the middle for people that want to drink less ? And I had friends at the time who were always saying a regular beer hits them like two drinks , probably for other people. So they wanted something in the middle. And yeah , it kind of took all of these ideas. And that's why with none. Yeah , if you actually look at all of our cans , the 0% , 2% , 4% , they're almost indistinguishable from each other. And that's very much intentional. So if you decide to drink and you want to shift off of drinking , no one's going to be able to tell if you're not drinking for the night. It kind of plays along with the whole , you know , Narnia business. Um.

S1: I like it. It is none of your business. Now get your nose out of my cup. Exactly what do you want to tell people ? Well , um , you brought with you , uh , one of your beverages. This is watermelon flavor.

S3: I did. Yeah. So that one is our watermelon. That's our 0%.

S1: I'm going to crack this can open , of course. Yeah.

S3: Yeah. We're coming out with blood orange , mango and then a strawberry lemon pretty shortly. So that's our first one.

S1: All right. Well let's let's try it. So so answer me this question because you have these varying degrees of alcohol in these. Which one is this.

S3: That one is our 0%. So it's actually 0.000. There's zero alcohol in it whatsoever. It's actually basically just a sparkling water with some flavor in it.

S1: All right. Well let's take a sip shall we. Cheers. Cheers.

S4: Cheers. Cheers.

S1: That is quite refreshing. I like this look. It's fancy. It's , uh. It's crisp. Yeah.

S3: Yeah. We wanted it to be very subtle. Exactly. We really wanted to create a lot of these where you can drink them. It's also very healthy in the sense of the ingredients are very simple. It's water. It's watermelon. That's literally all it is for , for this one. And then for the alcohol ones , the only difference in the ingredients is the alcohol.

S1: Well that's that's pretty good. That's impressive I like that and I and I do appreciate the fact that it doesn't have that syrupy taste to it at all. Exactly. Um , or an aftertaste , which is. That's huge. So I like that one. Uh , the next one that we have is curious number four. Um , so Kaylee and Crystal , can you tell me about that one ? Yeah.

S2: So Curious Elixirs has been around since 2015 , so they're , um , reaching their decade mark of being in the industry , and they are one of the trailblazers for the non-alcoholic industry. We really like all of their , um , flavors that they have. They have up to nine , I believe , now. Um , and so number four is what we've brought today for our tasting. And it's a blood orange Sicilian spritz. So it has a really nice bitter aperitif flavor profile to it. Aperitif.

S1: Aperitif. Yes.

S2: Yes.

S1: So what is.

S2: That ? So that would be similar to Aperol , the nice bitter flavor that you can taste in an Aperol Spritz. Yeah. So one of the things that we love about curious elixirs is the fact that they are full of adaptogens and nootropics , which are great for your body and your brain and help you adapt to the stressors that are natural in the environment.

S1: So tell me about a bit more about that. The adaptogens and things.

S4: And then there's going to be the other side of the spectrum which is unwinding. So there's those are going to have the properties of like ashwagandha and lion's mane that kind of calm you down. So another one that we really like is curious number one , it's like a pomegranate negroni , but it is like equivalent to how you feel relaxed after a glass of wine at night. So this one is great for during the day to kind of uplift you. And then that number one would be on the other spectrum of unwinding. So there's really no danger in mixing adaptogens if one is uplifting and if one is an unwinding , there's really there's really no harm in mixing those together.

S1: All right. And this has no , um , alcohol in it. Nope. All right. Let's give it a taste. That is really refreshing too. I do I do get that bitter hit.

S4: That bitter orange.

S2: Yeah , yeah. And so one of curious elixirs mottos is that they are not a mocktail , because sometimes mocktails , at least in our industry , coming as career bartenders , when someone would come up and ask us for a mocktail , it typically would be something with juice and sugar. Whereas these are complex , non-alcoholic cocktails that are packed with ingredients like holy basil and tulsi and ashwagandha and things that actually do have properties that naturally help your body unwind.

S1: That is very interesting , and this was very tasty , I must say.

S2:

S4: Yeah.

S2: Yeah. So so sometimes when you're looking at menus , they'll have non-alcoholic beer , which will contain an ABV of less than 0.5%. And then there's also cocktails that are made with that are called alcohol free. And an alcohol free cocktail has 0.0%. So sometimes people can be sensitive to even trace amounts of alcohol , which I like to compare the trace amounts of alcohol to a piece of sourdough bread or a banana , because even those items do have small trace amounts of alcohol in them. So when you look at the difference on the spectrum , it's nice to have something for everybody. And that's another thing that we're going to be really big on when it comes to creating our menu is that we want to have inclusivity all across the board. So if someone comes in and they are , say , a pregnant person , they don't want to have any trace of alcohol. They don't want to have any trace of adaptogens. We'll have something for them. If someone else on the other side of the spectrum comes in and they would like a non-alcoholic beer , they would like to try something that does have just trace amounts. Then we'll have something for them as well. Hmm.

S1: Hmm. Um , a banana ? Yes.

S2: Surprisingly enough.

S1: Really ? Like , I can see the bread. Okay. Because there's a this fermentation process that goes on. But how how is there alcohol in a banana ? I had no idea.

S2: I believe it's a naturally occurring property of it. And and I think it is something to do with the fact that it's fruit. Yeah , yeah. Okay.

S1: Okay. All right. We learned something new every single day here on midday Edition. Well , I'd like to turn our conversation a bit to the social aspects of drinking and why it's so important to have spaces where people can socialize and not be pressured to drink alcohol. So first , I mean , why do you all think drinking alcohol became so central to socializing in the first place.

S4: I think that a huge thing with alcohol is it kind of removes that anxiety a little bit , which we've noticed doing alcohol free events that especially after Covid , people are very socially anxious. And so once you get something in your hand , whether it's 0% , 2 or 4 , it's it takes that edge off where you have something in your hand and it kind of helps you socialize and integrate a little bit more in social scenes where you may not know a lot of people. But I think what people are looking for at the end of the day is a space that is comfortable , that has good music , good lighting , good people and just that's what it's about. And it's not as much about the ingredients in the glass.

S3: I think it's also come. It's been one of those things that people having questioned it for so long , it's become so normal that Whenever you're 15 , 16 , 17 , you ask your parents for a sip of their beer and then you go to college. And that's kind of such a huge part of going to school in the US is going to school , and partying is a big part of being social , and you don't want to be left out. And then I think for a lot of people is whether they know it or not , like Kaylee and Crystal is , you know , you go into your adulthood life and you just think any time that it's Friday or you're not working is you want to relax and you associate that with alcohol. So I think there's always been this big standard of , you know , there's nothing wrong with it. We really shouldn't think about it. And I think the new generations and people in our generations collectively are taking a step back and thinking , well , hold on , why am I even drinking in the first place ? It's because I have social anxieties around things. It because it makes me more easygoing. Is it just because I'm dealing with the stresses of my everyday life ? And then when people separate themselves from that is they really get to the core of , well , maybe I'm just doing it out of habit. Um , and when they start to question that , I think that goes back to the the mindfulness thing is. All right , well , maybe I'll only drink a few days of the week , and then I'll be more mindful of when and when not to drink. And yeah , I think it's just been a part of our society that people haven't questioned for for so long. And now with social media , and I think people like us having these conversations as people are talking about it a lot more.

S1:

S2: I had a tough time when going out. And there's the term pre gaming when you're going out with your friends. And I think that that was a big thing for me is that I did have that anxiety. And so I felt like I needed to have something in my hand or something in my body to help loosen up my nerves a little bit before I went out. But as I realized once I stopped drinking , I felt less anxious than I ever had before. And I think that we're so ingrained to think that alcohol is what's going to wind us down. And in reality , we talk about things like Sunday Scaries and hanging in. These things that happen to you when you drink. And alcohol will naturally make your body more anxious the following day. So when you remove that and when you're socializing and you're around people and you're all on the same frequency and it just it feels less anxious.

S1:

S2: I think a lot of the times Kaylee and I talk about that good news isn't just about the drinks , it's about the experience that we're cultivating , especially for San Diego , being known for its breweries and its its drinking scene. We just really want to create a different experience for people , especially adults , that would like to go out and still have that elevated night out with their friends or with their partner. And yeah , just just to normalize it. Kale.

S1: Kale.

S3: Yeah , there's a big I think a lot of people make the association with , whether it be sober , curious or the non-alcoholic industry , is that there's a huge separation between the two , where in reality is a lot of us. And I'm sure Kaylee and Krystal included , have friends that still drink like I myself. I haven't drank in two and a half months , and that's not to say I never will again , but I have friends that have been sober for years. I have people that have been sober for like nine months , but I also have friends that still heavily drink. And I think , you know , even if you do drink , it's all there doesn't need to be this separation between people that do and do not drink. It's really just providing a space. It's providing a brand that's all about inclusivity and trying to knock out the whole , I think , standard of people thinking , oh , well , you have to pick a side. You either have to drink or you have or you have to not drink. There's really no middle ground between the two. And having spaces like good news and having brands that offer range of different drinks for people is it's really about you doing what you're most comfortable with. And if you have friends that don't drink and you go to a space like good news , that is going to have an amazing atmosphere and awesome music and great people , that's equally just as much fun as go and do a bar and , you know , vice versa , because I think people play in both boats at the same time.

S1: Well , this has been a great Reception. A refreshing conversation with refreshing drinks , I might say. So I want to thank you all for being here. Kaylee and Crystal Clark from Good News Bar. Thank you.

S2: Thank you.

S4: Thank you for having us.

S1: And Kale Bowman from Nana Kale. Thank you so much.

S3: Yeah , thank you very much.

S1: And that's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.