S1: Welcome. In San Diego , it's Jade Hindman. On today's show , we are talking about the connection between the border crisis and guns made right here in America. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. Reporter. While gun debates and immigration debates continue in the United States , less discussed is the impact America's guns are having on neighboring countries like Mexico , for example. A new book examines the role guns from the United States are having in countries like Mexico , and the greater impacts gun violence brings along with them. UVA U Senator is a professor at Brown University and author of the book Exit Wounds How America's Guns Fueled Violence Across the Border. UVA , welcome to Midday edition. Hello.
S2: Hello. It's my pleasure to be here.
S1: So glad to have you here. I'm fascinated by your research versus , you know , you say this book started with an insight that lodged into your mind like a splinter. Tell us about that splinter.
S2: I was , uh , doing my previous project and also working as a paramedic and EMT on the US-Mexico border in southern Arizona. When I began meeting a lot of people , migrants , asylum seekers who were risking their lives and getting injured trying to cross into the United States , and a lot of them were saying that they had to flee home because of violence. And then I was crossing the border back and forth every day. But I began noticing these signs that when you go south to Mexico , it says guns and ammunition are illegal in Mexico. Until then , I didn't know Mexico had very different gun laws. But then once I realized that and read about it , it kind of I made I connected these dots that the people were coming here. They were fleeing violence that was caused by guns from the United States , guns that are sold here and then smuggled across the border. So once I connected those dots , I that that was the splinter. I kept thinking about it every time I crossed the border. And I thought , well , I should better follow them and see , like , how do these guns get there ? And what do they do in Mexico ? Wow.
S1:
S2: And there is actually another dimension to this which is drugs. So one of the reasons for this violence is because organised crime groups are competing for routes to , to deliver drugs to the United States market. So it's the guns going south. And what we are seeing north is both the people and the drugs coming north.
S1:
S2: Most common is something between 200,000 and maybe half a million. But these are estimates. We don't really know how illicit economies work. We only know how many guns are captured. And those are in the hundreds. So definitely not hundreds of thousands. I , I don't know , I from my experience , I would say definitely tens of thousands across the border each year. But it is extremely difficult to know because nobody , nobody can track them. Wow.
S3: Wow.
S1: Well , your book is not just about the guns , but more importantly , the people impacted by them. Can you tell us about some of the people you met while writing this book ? Yes.
S2: So this was the most important thing for me writing this book. I wanted to meet people who people who smuggle these guns , and people who live with guns and use these guns from the United States. So one of the person , one of the people I write about is this woman who was recruited into organized crime when she was still a teenager , and she was trained to be to be a killer , and in her life was a very violent life until until she was , um , arrested and then , um , put , put in jail. Um , and another person who grew up in the same town as , as this woman I got to know , was someone who was defending against organized crime from extortion and kidnapping. And , uh , he's he he's a businessman , and he's the loads he would send to these various areas around the the northeast. Mexico would disappear from the roads. So he smuggled guns from the United States to protect himself and his family. Because in a lot of areas in Mexico , people cannot trust the police. The criminal justice system is very weak. Impunity rates , or how many homicides and other crimes are never reported or prosecuted or investigated is very high. So there is all these people , uh , on both who are engaging in crime and those afraid of criminals are using US weapons. And then there are journalists. I also , uh , follow some some journalists who are trying to report on this issue of organized crime and its connections to various , uh , Mexican government officials. And they've been doing that for many years. And it's a it's a very heavy toll for them. Wow.
S3: Wow.
S1:
S2: The firearms and explosives law , basically everyone can have if they pass background checks and provide letters and have employment , they can have a pistol for self-defense. But rifles or shotguns are only available to those individuals who belong to gun clubs and um , or are hunters or recreational shooters. So you have and you have to register and reregister guns every year. Not high caliber weapons like we have here. Most of AR 15 varieties , or AK 47 or 50 caliber barrels that are used in in war zones. Those are only reserved for for the exclusive use of the military , not for civilian use in Mexico.
S1: And , you know , gun culture , it's pretty prolific here in the US. But that's not the case in Mexico. So what is going on ? Well.
S2: Mexico also has small pockets of gun enthusiasts , and there is hunting northeast Mexico and other parts of Mexico. Even us people go there to to hunt for hunting season. But it's very there is no gun industry in Mexico. Um , very. They do manufacture ammunition , but no gun companies like here. Therefore , there is also no gun lobby because there is no industry for the gun lobby to protect. So guns are much more seen as tools means to an end. Whether you're a hunter or a shooter , they're not so ingrained into , uh , the understanding of political subjectivity or like individualism that we have in the , in the United States , where , where guns symbolize kind of citizen sovereignty and independence. Um , that doesn't exist in Mexico. Guns are very much part of national discourse. Yes. We needed guns to create Mexican nation state , defend against foreign invasions , including from the United States. But , uh , but they are not part of any kind of political , um , state project.
S1: So they just they have a completely different history , um , with guns. And I know that something that you , you write about in your book , you know , but we're , we're also seeing this movement of U.S. guns into other countries , too. I'm thinking of Haiti , for example. Um , can you talk a bit about that ? Yes.
S2: So. Well , in Mexico , at least 70 and more likely maybe 80 or 90% of all guns in Mexico recovered in crime scenes come from the United States , in Haiti. It is also similar , I think , even even closer to 1,890% of guns come from the United States. They travel different routes , so guns to Haiti usually gets some , either like in ships via Florida and sometimes via airplane. But to Mexico , we have such a long 2000 mile border that most guns get into Mexico through ports of entry. So there is almost no outbound inspections in the United States , so they can be put in any , any truck with sheetrock or other construction materials or futons or just in regular passenger vehicles. Um , Central America to it's just the United States is one of the major producers of um , arms , especially in this hemisphere. So we do see a lot of US guns , not only in Mexico but but in , in other parts , parts of this region. And then it's directly connected to , to violence in those countries. And then people we , we see in the , you know , seeking asylum in the United States because they're running away from from violence caused by these guns.
S1:
S2: But most Mexicans do not qualify for asylum because of various agreements between the United States and Mexico and the same for Central Americans. So they cross the border without even asking for asylum , although they are fleeing violence and should qualify. Uh , so we don't really know how many people are fleeing violence. Uh , the numbers of asylum seekers are much , much , uh , smaller. But they there are also very strict , uh , procedures of how to even register your claim for asylum , uh , on the border or once you're in the country. So. So those numbers wouldn't really tell us much either.
S1: Um , you know , in another interview , you said that your hope is that we can find solutions beyond , you know , investing in border walls and surveillance and detention centers.
S2: So yes , any laws we pass or any gun regulations that would increase gun safety in this country , for example , smart technologies on firearms. So only the person who buys it can use it. Not the thieves , not the smugglers , uh , or thinking about , do we really need to buy to be able to buy ten AK 47 seconds every week or every month ? So maybe thinking about the quantities of guns , all of that is important. At the same time , this is only the supply side. We cannot only use laws to get out of this problem. There is also the demand side. Why do people in Mexico want the guns from the United States ? And part of it is insecurity. But why is there insecurity ? Well , because organized crime is is so strong. Why is it strong ? Because it gets rich from selling drugs to US consumers. So we also need to address such issues as drug addiction in the United States , which might seem so unconnected from our gun problems. But actually it is. It is the same , uh , kind of vicious circle of violence. So I think one of the things I hope people who read this book will understand just how many failed policies had to come together to create the situation , and also how how many different , um , um , policies , uh , will need to be implemented in order for us to , to begin , um , improve it.
S1: Um , you know , there are so many harmful and racist narratives , um , out there about asylum seekers and people who are migrating to our southern border.
S2: So whenever we especially in election seasons , but usually when we think about Mexico , we see it as this violent country , and we see migrants and asylum seekers as threats. And maybe they will bring violence into the United States. But we don't we fail to connect these , uh , these dots that , well , that violence is actually materially produced by the guns that are manufactured and sold in this country. So United States and Mexico and also other countries in the region are in this together. Um , and , uh , and I think it's , it's it's important to recognize our responsibility for what's happening in Mexico and other parts of , of , uh , Caribbean and Central America and , uh , and do something about it.
S1: In your work , you often focus on violence , on trauma , much of it along the US-Mexico border. Your previous book focused on the experiences of emergency responders along the US-Mexico border , for example.
S2: So borders are they are human creation. We we built them. They're historical. Uh , 200 years ago , there was no border between us and Mexico. So we we begin to take them for granted. But there is nothing taken for granted about borders. And they at the same time , they the material construction , like building the wall , putting concertina wire. It hurts a lot of people that we decide we exclude in that historical period of time , but they don't work because neither the people are stopped by walls. They are coming for much more important reasons. Nor does it do anything to to stop the flow of of drugs. Um , so , so the , the , the quick answer is that borders don't really work what they are advertised for. At the same time , we keep building them because they are they win votes. Politically , they seem to be easy solutions to problems that are much , much more complicated about the global economy , US labor market and other , um , questions. Um , so it's just a puzzle to me why we are so obsessed with with these structures that do so much harm. And they don't really , um , they don't really work. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Usada's new book is called Exit Wounds How America's Guns Fuel Violence Across the Border. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us.
S2: Thank you so much for having me. It's been great.
S1: That's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
