'City of Dreams' author Don Winslow reflects on prose and politics

S1: Very few books are so eagerly awaited or so widely praised as the novels in a Don Winslow crime fiction series. His cartel trilogy explored the war on drugs in a complex and riveting storyline that gave readers more than just thrills. It gave them a deeper understanding of the causes and structure of drug violence. Now , Winslow was out with the second book of his newest celebrated trilogy , City of Dreams. It's a move away from the border and into the fading crime mobs of the East Coast , and it asks if there is such a thing as a second chance. Don Winslow lives part time right here in San Diego. And Don Winslow , Hello. Hello.

S2: Hello. How are you , Maureen ? I'm doing.

S1: Quite well. Thank you for being here and speaking with us. Thanks for.

S3: Having me.

S1: Now , as I say , you live part time here and part time in Rhode Island , where you grew up.

S4: My mom needed more help. You know how that goes. And so my wife and I started to go back to Rhode Island for longer and longer periods of time , and I started to fall in love with the place again. And I think when I start falling in love with locations , you know , I generally start writing about them.

S1: Now , Rhode Island , as some people may not know , it was actually a big mafia state back in the day. I'm wondering , did you know any mob connected guys when you were a kid ? Sure.

S2: They were all over the place. Listen , I didn't have any close.

S4: Relations with them , you know , But Rhode Island is a small state. You know , it's about the size of a Walmart parking lot. And so everybody knows everybody , you know , So as a kid , sure , those those were guys that were hanging around. You saw them , you read about them in the papers , You'd see them on the street. You'd see them at hockey games. So , yeah , it was a very familiar kind of biome for me.

S1:

S2:

S4: Look , you know , about 28 years ago , I guess is when I started this.

S2: Trilogy , believe it or not.

S4: Because I had recently read The Iliad and The Odyssey and The Aeneid and all of these classics , and they reminded me , believe it or not , very much of real life crime stories that were going on when I was a kid. And so I wondered at that point , you know , could I could I tell a contemporary crime story and have it stand alone as such ? But take the plots and the characters from those classics ? So one , I decided to launch into that , as it were. Rhode Island seemed to be a natural place to start it because , as I said , I grew up during the New England Crime Wars and they felt very much like the Iliad to me. And so that's why I said it in Rhode Island , really. Now , we.

S1: Spoke with you last year around the debut of the first book in this trilogy , City on Fire.

S4: The protagonist , Danny Ryan , is fleeing Rhode Island. He's fleeing the mob , the feds , the cops , all kinds of people who want him dead. And he's always had a dream of coming to California. And so we actually will find him in San Diego.

S1: Ah , but Hollywood is clearly the city of Dreams.

S4: First Danny comes here and then he eventually migrates up the five and the 405 to Hollywood. Yeah.

S2: Yeah.

S1:

S2:

S4: You know , it's typically the West Coast is the place where America has gone to reinvent itself. And Hollywood is the maximum expression of that. It's what creates our fantasies and our images of ourselves and kind of depicts our our wants and our needs and our dreams.

S1: Now , beginnings and endings seem to be relatively easy , but the second act of a book is often a challenge for an author.

S4: This one not so much , though , I have to tell you , because I was following the story arc of The Aeneid. I knew I had great stories to tell. You know , you've got this guy who's a widower , who has an aging father and an infant son in his care while he's on the run. He meets a beautiful movie star and falls in love with her. And so the story's sort of told themselves , you know , so and I never felt that kind of drop that sometimes you feel in the second act of something.

S1: Let's talk more about this Aeneid influence.

S2: Anyway.

S4: Anyway. You know , I don't think we.

S2: We realize.

S4: What a debt we owe to those classics in terms of the stories we tell our common culture , our themes. When when I look at at the themes of my beloved crime fiction genre and I'm very much a crime fiction writer , all of those themes were already done by the time the Greeks and. The Romans were finished. And so in reading , you know , works like The Aeneid. It struck me , you know , how those themes resonate through contemporary crime fiction. And and that's why I wanted to try to pick it up.

S1:

S2:

S4: You know , Aeneas starts as a character in the Iliad. Actually. He's a minor player who eventually , however , takes command of the Trojan forces and loses the war. And then he has to run. And that's the same with Danny. Danny starts as sort of an outsider in the Irish mob. You know , he's the son in law. He marries into it and then he loses the war and he has to run. Aeneas wanders the world trying to find a place to set his feet , and he can't get it done. And I know that feeling , by the way. I know that feeling personally , you know , of having traveled for years and years and made my living in Africa , England , China , out here in California while I was trying to find some success as a writer. So they match up that way. And then in the third act , you know , the next book that comes out next year , Aeneas founded The Empire of Rome. You know , that's that's the founding myth of Rome. And I had to figure out what sort of empire could Danny create. And the answer was found in Las Vegas. Aha.

S1: Aha. All right. That sounds good. When you draw , though , on these ancient myths to write , I'm wondering , is it hard to create work that you feel is fresh ? Yes.

S4: That's why I think it took me 28 years to write this trilogy.

S2: Because , listen , there were times I felt that I just wasn't up to it.

S4: You know what I mean ? That I didn't have the talent to pull it off. Which is why I think , you know , I started this book many years ago and finished the trilogy fairly recently when I maybe felt that I developed enough skill and enough talent.

S2: The real problem , though , was.

S4: Finding the contemporary equivalents to ancient events and to ancient characters. I didn't want to write silhouettes and I didn't want to write cartoons , you know , just subbing in characters for this person or that God or something. It had to resonate in contemporary terms. And yeah , that took.

S2: A while to find.

S4: You know , Aeneas mother is the goddess Aphrodite. Who was that supposed to be ? In Providence , Rhode Island , in the 1980s. Aeneas wanders into a cave and he sees murals of the Trojan War as he sees himself and his family and his friends. What's the modern equivalent of that ? It took me a while , but I finally figured out , of course , obviously it was film. It was someone making a movie of that.

S2: So to find those , those equivalents of of those ancient acts.

S4: And people and to make them fresh and new was a real challenge. And , you know , I'd be the last person to judge whether I succeeded or not.

S1: I'm thinking about storytelling , about organized crime. There's been a lot of it the novels , Scorsese movies , The Sopranos TV series , and some of it has been criticized for making vicious criminals into icons. How do you feel about that ? I mean , while you're creating some criminal icons of your own.

S2: It's a tricky topic. Organized crime has always been a very popular.

S4: Subject in in fiction and in film and in.

S2: Nonfiction , for that matter.

S4: You know , true life accounts of this kind of thing. That's always tricky to do because.

S2: What I am trying to do is show a realistic.

S4: World , right ? I think that my job is to take the reader into worlds that he or she otherwise couldn't enter , probably. And the way that I choose to do that is to see the world through.

S2: Those character's eyes.

S4: In that sense , I can't be objective when I'm writing. I have to be subjective. I have to try my best to see the world through , you know , bad guys eyes , if you will. That used to be my job when I was an investigator , by the way , you know , interviewing , interviewing people. And I interviewed a lot of people in prison. They all had a point of view. We might hate that point of view quite rightly , but they all have a point of view and they all have a story , you know ? And so that's that's what I'm trying to do.

S1: Now , your previous cartel trilogy was so intense and so kind of ripped from the headlines kind of. Now this City of Dreams is still a thriller , but it has a more sweeping and timeless theme. Which is more difficult to write.

S2: You know , I think that depends on what you mean by difficult.

S4: Or where the difficulty lay.

S2: The cartel books were extremely difficult to write.

S4: Because they were so realistic. You know , I'd sit there writing an incident of violence that I knew had actually happened. And so that was tough. And , you know , I had to ask myself.

S2: A lot of questions.

S4: And answer them , you know , should I portray this violence realistically or should I try to sanitize it for the reader ? You know , how accurate did I want to be ? And and at the end of the day , for the most part , I decided to portray it realistically. Although at a later period in time , I thought that the violence was getting to be to the point where people were inured to it. And so I started to write , instead of the actual violence , the reaction.

S2: To violence.

S4: You know , people coming on the scene afterwards or the family perhaps days later.

S2: So cartel , particularly because it portrayed such a horrendous era.

S4: In Mexico , was particularly.

S2: Difficult to write.

S4: In terms of.

S2: Creative difficulty. Though this book , this trilogy , was more difficult because.

S4: In the in the Mexican trilogy and the.

S2: Cartel trilogy.

S4: Again , as you alluded to , I was taking things that were ripped from the headlines. And so the story was sort of already there. It was a matter of finding fictional ways into it.

S2: Here , although I had the sort of basic.

S4: Skeleton of those classical works we mentioned. It was much more difficult to create the modern situations and make them live in modern times. I had sort of a test for myself for any given chapter. I'd read it and ask , Can it stand. Alone.

S2: Alone.

S4: Without any reference to the classics whatsoever ? If you didn't know anything about the classics , could you still read this book and enjoy it ? And that was the test that I tried to apply to to every chapter of this trilogy.

S2: So yeah , that that was a little bit harder.

S1: You know , I've been looking over the reviews for your work in the past and with the new book City of Dreams , and they're filled with praise. But I'm wondering , did you ever read a review and think this person got it entirely wrong ? That is not my book.

S4: Yes , but I'm not.

S2: Going to specify.

S5: That must be disturbing. No.

S2: No. Can I tell you ? Can I tell you a terrible story about this , please ? This is this is a confession , and I probably shouldn't be making it.

S6: Go ahead.

S2: Years ago , my brother in law phoned up late at night from Nebraska , very upset , and his daughter was having.

S4: Basically sort of a nervous breakdown. Right. Junior in high school that year. And she had to write a book review of one of my books called Isle of Joy. And he begged me , Would you write it ? And I felt terrible. I mean , I thought , ethically , this is wrong. It's wrong on every level.

S2: But I thought , okay.

S4: I'm going to do this.

S2: So I wrote a high school book review of my own book. It got a C , and the teacher wrote marginal comments such as I don't think this is what the writer had in mind. See.

S5: See.

S2: I couldn't say anything , you know , because I was already guilty.

S1: You know , once it leaves your hands on , it's the worlds.

S2: It's the worlds that's. That's it. So that's. That's my.

S4: Worst story.

S2: About that.

S1: I'm speaking with celebrated crime fiction writer Don Winslow about his new book , City of Dreams. When we come back , we'll talk more about the upcoming films and series based on Winslow's work and his plans for the future. We'd love to hear your thoughts about Don Winslow's crime fiction. Give us a call at (619) 542-0228 and leave a message or you can email us at midday at pbs.org. Coming up , Winslow's stories move beyond the printed page.

S4: They're just finishing filming.

S2: Actually , the pilot of a television series of the border trilogy. This trilogy is now headed to film , so quite a few.

S1: You're listening to KPBS Midday Edition. You're listening to KPBS Midday Edition. I'm Maureen Cavanaugh. And bestselling crime fiction writer Don Winslow is my guest. We've been talking about his new book , City of Dreams. It's the second installment of a planned trilogy which began with last year's publication of City on Fire. And Don , welcome back.

S3: Thank you.

S1: Now , the main character in City of Dreams , Danny Ryan , heads for Hollywood. And you've kind of done the same thing yourself.

S2: I just they're just.

S4: Finishing filming.

S2: Actually , the pilot of a television series of the Border trilogy. And so that's pretty exciting.

S4: This this book , this trilogy is is now.

S2: Headed to film.

S4: With Austin Butler. I don't know if you saw. Elvis.

S2: Elvis.

S4: Playing Danny. And so , boy , there's just a lot of them , you know , The Force , my book about the NYPD is in development , a novella I did call Crime 101 , in fact , set here in San Diego , was in development.

S2: So quite a few.

S1: Writing a novel is such a solitary thing. And what's it like opening up the creative process ? You know , with additional writers , you have the actors and you have that director.

S3:

S2: It's a difficult balancing act because.

S4: In a.

S2: Way you have to hold on.

S4: To the material to make sure that the essence of it is being done the way that you imagined it. On the other hand , though , you have.

S2: To let go.

S4: Because you know that these are two different breeds of cat , right ? Novels and film or TV are two different animals with with very often different needs.

S2: I also have to be a little modest.

S4: And and realize that a screenwriter might have a better.

S2: Idea for certain things.

S4: An actor might.

S2: Have an interpretation that I hadn't thought of.

S4: Or an actor. Might.

S2: Might.

S4: Perform your words and make them better than.

S2: They were.

S4: On the page.

S2: So it's it's a difficult balancing act because on the one hand , you have to be a little.

S4: Stubborn , you know , and say , boy , this is the essence of the book. This is the essence of that character.

S2: At the same time , though.

S4: Retaining an open. Mind.

S2: Mind.

S4: But you know what the.

S2: Coolest thing about it is ? And it's funny , it never occurred to me until I was sitting watching the the credits of a film called Savages , the book of which I wrote. And I realized , you know , that at some point , a year and a half earlier , I'd been sitting , in fact , at this.

S4: Desk and had this little idea. And now.

S2: Hundreds of people have been working because of it.

S4: You know , paying rents and mortgages and car payments and tuitions and all of that kind of thing. That's really cool.

S2: And I like that a lot.

S1: Yeah , that just came out of your head and it created this whole world for people.

S2: You create this little cottage industry that exists for a while or.

S4: What the case of a television series may be for quite a while , you know , And.

S2: People are at.

S4: Work and very skilled.

S2: Artistic people who care , you know. And so that's.

S4: A happy thing. That's a good. Thing.

S6: Thing.

S1:

S2: Maureen and I don't have the last say , but I have a lot to say. I have a.

S4: Definite seat at.

S2: The table , which is all I really. Want.

S4: Want. I want to be heard. I want my opinion to be heard. I'm a big believer in the battleground of ideas. Let's all go in and check our egos at the door and let the best idea win. You know , I'm fine with that. So I don't I don't need the last word. I do need a word. You know , I do need to be listened to.

S1: Here in San Diego , Don , we are very happy to refer to you as one of our own literary voices. But as you've mentioned , not only do you spend a lot of time in Rhode Island , but you've traveled all over the world throughout your life.

S4:

S2: You know , listen , you know , I , I spent time , for instance , as a photographic safari guide in Africa.

S4: I think that gave me a good realization that the world was a lot bigger.

S2: Than my little town.

S4: In Rhode Island. It also taught me to look at things in detail and to look ahead. I spent 20 summers directing Shakespeare in Oxford , England , which was a tremendous experience. You know , the people that I met and that I got to work with really informed my work quite a bit. And then I came out here , you know , I can I can remember Marine to this day , the first time I drove the Pacific Coast. Highway.

S2: Highway.

S4: And absolutely fell in love. And now , of course , I've driven it. And sometimes I suppose I'm excited. Every time.

S1: It's a big deal. It's a big deal coming from the East Coast saying that.

S6: I know. Yeah. Oh , God.

S2: Come over this hill , you.

S4: Know , And the ocean looks almost vertical , you know , in front of you. And. And it's. It's been a love affair ever since. You know , I still get turned on by it.

S2: So , yeah , all those experiences , I.

S4: Think , always inform your writing.

S1: You say that you have a love of crime novels , not just writing them , but reading them.

S4: You know , I'm always afraid of this answer because I'm afraid of leaving people out. And I don't know how much time we have because I could go on forever.

S2: But on the.

S4: Topic of San Diego , let's start with Raymond Chandler. You know , it gives me great joy that Chandler wrote his great Los Angeles novels in La Jolla.

S2: You know , I actually got to go to his house , which was like going to church.

S4: You know , it was amazing to to be in the room where the long Goodbye was written. I can't tell you how thrilled I was.

S2: So , you know , I start with Chandler , but there's so many of them.

S4: You know , when when I was coming up , you know , and thinking about doing this , I was reading Lawrence Block and oh , my gosh , you know , John McDonald , Ross MacDonald , of course , the late , great , indispensable Elmore Leonard , another San Diego guy , you know , tJf T , Jefferson Parker. So there there are just so many of them.

S6: You know , many.

S1: Creative people have a love hate relationship when it comes to other artists work.

S4:

S2: Look , it's a big world.

S4: Do you know what I mean ? There's there's room for all of us. And I love this genre. And by the way , I read outside the crime fiction genre , so I'm always just overjoyed to find a great book. It makes me happy. I find that I'm admiring those people. You know , sometimes you get a twinge , you know , Man , I wish I were that good. But absolutely , though , a joy to read a good book.

S6: Would you share.

S1:

S2:

S4: Last night I.

S2: Finished the last gift Abdulrazak.

S4: Gurnah won the Nobel Prize for literature. I've been reading , you know , a lot of.

S2: African literature lately. My background.

S4: My academic background actually is in African history. So yeah , and that was just a beautiful book , The Last. Gift.

S2: Gift.

S1: Now , Don , when we spoke last year , you said that this current trilogy will be your last , in fact , that you'll be giving up writing novels and for political activism Instead , some people would say , you know , that's a step down from art to politics.

S4:

S2: We're in a period of time.

S4: That's an existential period for American democracy. And I , I just think that that my time and energies are are better devoted to that fight than to writing another book.

S1: I know that you have been rather high profile in your political leanings. You're a prodigious tweeter. I know that lots of your tweets criticize right wingers.

S2: I wish it weren't. But , you know , look , I mean , you you have to fight the fight where the fight is.

S4: That's where the fight is right now. And I don't intend to be chased off. Okay.

S1: Okay.

S4:

S1: And can you tell us what they're about ? Give us an idea of what these videos are about.

S2:

S4: We when I say we , I mean my partner , Shane Salerno , and I do the Twitter and Shane and I do the videos together.

S2: We're responding.

S4: For the most part , to whatever's in the news and trying to to give a good , tough , plain language response to those things. So in that sense , we're kind of reactive. Certainly will be. We'll be talking about women's rights , we'll be talking about immigration. We'll be talking about what is still , I think , the inadequate response to the January 6th coup will be supporting candidates as those things come up.

S2: I think also we'll be trying to maybe a little more than we have , although we we've done some of this reach out to Republicans who.

S4: Might at this point be more responsive to walking away from the Trump and MAGA camp.

S1: Do you think that the videos have more ? More influence than your.

S6: Writing Depends.

S2: On what you mean by influence. But here's the thing. It's about it's.

S4:

S2: Is a is a slow cooker. The cartel took 4 or 5 years to write power. The dog took six. So if I were to write a novel about these.

S4: Issues in these times , it would take me 3.

S2: Or 4 years to.

S4: Write a decent one , another year or two , you know , in in production. And by that time , the events that we're trying to.

S2: Affect will have been over.

S4: I don't.

S2: Want to write an elegy , so I know that the videos.

S4: And the tweets have had impacts because candidates have told us so. You know , we did , for instance , a campaign ad in Pennsylvania for the 2020 election that got 10 million views , largely because Mr. Springsteen contributed his music. We did another one from Michigan that got 5 million views , the great actor and great guy , Jeff Daniels , narrated another one he did for Georgia.

S2: So sometimes our videos got more.

S4: Views in the actual. Campaign.

S2: Campaign. Materials.

S4: Materials. And so candidates have told us that , yeah , we have.

S2: Had a positive effect.

S1: Okay , so your activism will continue , The videos will continue. The tweets will continue. Yes.

S6: Yes.

S1: I'm just wondering , you know , the final book in the trilogy , which you say is supposed to come out next year , I read it's called City in Ruins. Yes. You've been doing this for more than 20 years now. Do you.

S6: Think you'll.

S1: Really be able to stay away from writing , from creating these worlds and these characters ? They'll probably still be floating around in your head , don't you think ? Yeah.

S4: Look , there's a lot of stuff floating around in my head. It doesn't necessarily mean.

S2: It needs to come to the surface , you know ? Uh , yeah. Look , I. I'm old enough. To.

S4: To. To. No , never say never.

S2: At this point. I've told the stories that I want to tell and I don't want to be publishing books just for the sake of publishing.

S4: Or just for the sake of a paycheck. I meant what I said about this. The third book , by the way , is finished. You know , it's already written. It's just waiting its turn. And so.

S2: Yeah , I think I will be able to stay away from it. Okay.

S1: Okay. Well , lots of people are hoping you don't.

S5: I've been speaking about many.

S1: Things with celebrated crime author Don Winslow , but mainly about his new book , City of Dreams. Don , thank you so much.

S2: Thank you so much for having me.