S1: It's time for Midday Edition on KPBS. On today's show , we're talking about Christian nationalism and the influence of evangelicalism on American politics today. I'm Jade Hindman. Here's the conversations that keep you informed , inspired , and make you think. A panel of theologians weigh in on the stronghold of evangelicals in politics.
S2: These people privilege a particular kind of reading of the Bible , while at the same time stifling counter narratives that have existed and continue to exist. Right.
S1: We'll also discuss the movement of people turning away from the evangelical church , and look at how much Christian nationalism actually has to do with Christianity. That's all ahead on Midday Edition. Christian nationalism is embedded in our American political framework , from government symbols to major court decisions. According to the Public Religion Research Institute , nearly 3 in 10 Americans are Christian nationalist adherents or sympathizers. The Pew Research Center says about half of U.S. adults believe the Bible should have a great deal , or some influence on our country's laws. 86% of white evangelical Protestants fall into that category. At the same time , there's a growing trend of people turning away from the evangelical movement as they grow dissuaded by perceived hypocrisy. I'm excited to discuss all of this with the panel I have here today. Joining me now is Reverend Christopher Carter , associate professor of theology at the University of San Diego. He's also pastor of the Loft at Westwood United Methodist Church in Los Angeles. Reverend Carter , welcome.
S2: Thank you for having me.
S1: Also , Amanda Tyler , executive director of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty. Amanda , welcome.
S3: Oh , thanks for having me here.
S1: And Kristin Kobus Dumais , she's a professor of history at Calvin University. She's also the author of Jesus and John Wayne Christian. Welcome.
S3: Thanks so much for having me.
S1: Glad you are all here. So , Amanda , I want to start by defining our terms.
S3: Put another way , Christian nationalism suggests that to be a true American , one has to be a Christian. And not just any kind of Christian , but a white Christian who holds certain fundamental religious beliefs that are in line with certain conservative political positions. And anyone who doesn't fit into that narrow circle of belonging has inherently a second class citizen status. Christian nationalism also relies heavily on this , uh , hypothetical , um and not true mythology of the American founding as one of a Christian nation , that is , that America was founded by Christians in order to privilege Christianity in law and policy. And it's a deeply seeded ideology that's been part of the American experience and culture for generations. And that is gaining currency and power in our modern times. But Christian nationalism is not the same as Christianity , the religion. And in fact , it is a gross distortion of the teachings of Jesus. But there are many , as you note , many adherents of Christian nationalism who are also Christian. And so it is not always such a neatly divided line between the two.
S1:
S3: It uses Christian language and Christianity as the permission structure for all kinds of injustice and racial inequity and inequality. Um , and so I do think that we can't underestimate or the power of white supremacy and racism , not just in the American history , in American history and in American culture , but also in this overlapping ideology of Christian nationalism. But it uses the currency and the popularity of Christianity to make these less popular ideas now seem more palatable. Hmm.
S4: Hmm.
S1:
S3: I think it it finds its way in a number of different denominations , including parts of my own denomination of being Baptists , although I myself do not claim an evangelical label. And then , of course , many evangelicals are not part of any formal denominational entity. There's a large non-denominational movement that's been going on for decades in this country. Um , but I think in a lot of circles , the evangelical has become more of a political label than even a religious one. Mhm.
S4: Mhm. And I want to.
S1: Bring Kristen into this conversation. Can you expand on that for us ? Sure.
S5: Amanda is exactly right. Evangelicalism is a tricky term to define. And it is so for for a number of reasons one. Is not contained within any one denomination or any number of denominations. So we could look at a denomination like the Southern Baptist Convention , the largest Protestant denomination in this country , and we could safely say , yes , they count as evangelicals. Assemblies of God. Many in the charismatic tradition would not have identified as evangelical even ten , 20 years ago. Now they are often put in that category , and there are reasons for that. A lot of evangelical leaders , particularly in institutions and organizations like Christianity Today , have wanted to define evangelicalism as a theological concept. And so you believe in the authority of the Bible. You believe in and hold to this Born-Again experience. But in fact , evangelicalism is not a movement defined primarily by its theology. Amanda suggested that it is now in many ways , a political movement and a cultural movement. And in my own research as a cultural historian , I've looked at how evangelicalism is in many ways we can understand it as a series of networks and alliances and as a consumer culture. So if you listen to Christian radio , uh , anywhere in this country , you are being exposed to evangelicalism. If you buy books from Christian publishers , chances are you're getting exposed to evangelicalism. So what that means is that the influence of evangelicalism extends far beyond any particular denominations , the walls of any church , and many American Christians and many people who do not even identify as Christians have been influenced by this evangelical movement , which now to many people is overlaps very closely with a conservative political agenda with the Republican Party and in many cases with the agenda of Donald Trump and MAGA politics.
S4: Well , and Reverend.
S1: Carter , on that point , we've really seen this influence grow over the last half century.
S2: Uh , I think subtly , what we see it being reinforced , um , are through some of the normative consumption patterns that Christian mentioned. And I think , I mean , her book does a great job of describing how the Christian consumer culture has pierced , like kind of a large scale market , such that people might be buying things that they aren't even fully aware come from a particular kind of theological discourse that actually is evangelical. They think it's , broadly speaking , Christian with respect to congregations. You know what I have seen not only in my own. So I'm a United Methodist , and as some of you may know , like we just went through or we're going through this particular split , um , you know , with respect to issues of , uh , gender and sexuality. Um , but in truth , I mean , the split that we're going through follows a historical pattern of our denomination having split over issues of abolition , issues of slavery , issues of , of , of , uh , the way in which women are seen as equal participants within the church. And so to that end , one thing I do want to mention before I forget , too , is so much of what comes up when we're talking about white Christian nationalism is also patriarchy is deeply embedded in this as well.
S4: Well , you.
S1: Know , as Amanda discussed earlier , the intersection of whiteness , patriarchy and evangelicalism is really central to this conversation. Uh , and , Christopher , you pointed that out as well.
S5: Uh , this is the context of the Cold War , where evangelicals were firmly , um , anti-communist and pro-military. So were many other Americans at that time. But then by the 1960s , you start to see divisions across American society with the civil rights movement and the antiwar movement , the Vietnam War and the feminist movement. And around all of those issues , white evangelicals dig in their heels and they hold fast to the idea of American greatness and American goodness. Ideas are incompatible in many ways with the antiwar movement , with the civil rights movement , and the reckoning that the civil rights movement is calling the nation to. And. For all of these issues at that moment. The assertion of white patriarchal authority is is the answer. And so this is where you see a lot of emphasis by the early 70s in evangelical popular writings on family values and on patriarchy , and on obeying those with authority , obeying the father's authority , how to raise your kids , how to discipline them. And the idea is that if you have this orderly society within or this orderly , uh , structure within your own family , you will also have an orderly society along the lines of the God ordained hierarchies. Right. And so you can just see how racial hierarchies and gender hierarchies are intertwined in this assertion of God ordained order. And all of this is understood to be absolutely bedrock to Christian America.
S1: So then , do you see Christianity , or at least. This.
S4: This.
S1:
S5: It is certainly at the root , it is certainly at the root , uh , you know , and here you can trace back further to , uh , some of the first colonists who came over. Oh , you can trace it back to the doctrine of Discovery , if you will , this idea that Christians had a mandate to take hold of the new world and to subdue the native populations , you see slavery justified in terms of , you know , God ordained order. And I mean , you also had Christian abolitionists , but too often people want to kind of hold up those heroes and forget that the status quo was also absolutely supported and powerfully supported by biblical teaching at the time. So , yes , from its origins in this country , uh , Christianity and racial oppression have been intertwined , even as we have seen people draw on Christianity to challenge that racism , to challenge that inequality.
S1:
S2: And as Christian said , the doctrine of discovery is very imperative in terms of how we understand this , this idea that a , that people in Europe could claim that , uh , lands that had yet to be seen by Europeans are , uh , practically , for all intents and purposes , uninhabited because European Christians had not been there or had arrived there. And so what we see here is this kind of dehumanization that takes place this way , in which people are only understood to be human with their approximate distance towards a particular kind of human being. This euro , you know , European , white , heterosexual , you know , able bodied man. Uh , and so because of this , you see this kind of what I refer to often as a theological anthropology , like an understanding of what it means to be human that becomes embedded. Not only I was suggesting Christianity , but often in American culture. Uh , it's this idea of what it means to be human that aligned to those values of upholding white supremacy , of upholding patriarchy , of , of of ableism , of sexism , you know , these other kinds of , of frameworks. And so I also just wanted to be clear that as , as Kristen also mentioned and as Amanda , I mentioned earlier , like , these people privilege a particular kind of reading of the Bible , while at the same time stifling counter narratives that have existed and continue to exist , right , that offer a disruption to their particular kinds of interpretations that uphold these , these , these values. I mean , whether or not you want to center the teachings of Jesus or any of this , you know , many of the teachings in the New Testament would undermine much of this argument. In that sense , it becomes religious and as much as how we make meaning , but not , I would suggest , is religious , inasmuch as it follows what I would refer to or what Howard Thurman refers to as the religion of Jesus. Um , it's not about the religion of Jesus. It is very much about this religion of maintaining power and order and willingness to be violent , to maintain that sense of freedom and order.
S1: Coming up , a look at why evangelicals support candidate Donald Trump , even though he doesn't practice many evangelical beliefs.
S5: President Trump came along , candidate Trump came along and promised evangelicals power. He said he would fight for them. He would protect Christianity. And they responded.
S1: More on that when Midday Edition returns after the break. Welcome back to KPBS Midday Edition. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. On the show today , we are diving into the political influence of Christian nationalism. I'm speaking now with Reverend Christopher Carter , associate professor of theology at the University of San Diego. He's also pastor of the Loft at Westwood United Methodist Church in Los Angeles. Also , Amanda Tyler , executive director of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty , and Kristin Kobus Dumais. She's a professor of history at Calvin University. She's also the author of Jesus and John Wayne. Uh , Christian , you've already mentioned him once , but the elephant in the room here is Trump. According to the Pew Research Center , white evangelical Protestants have the most positive opinion of Trump.
S5: And power is at the heart of Christian nationalism. And you don't need to be a Christian to promise Christians power. In fact , it's almost better if you're not , or certainly if you're not deeply shaped by traditional Christian virtues. Right ? What are Christian virtues ? Things like love , gentleness , kindness , self-control , you know , not a list of attributes that President Trump is generally known for. But among , uh , conservative evangelicals , what we've seen over the past few years is this growing alliance and even devotion to Trump , precisely because he's not inhibited by those virtues , because he has promised to fight for them ruthlessly if need be , and the ends will justify the means. And and to understand this , you have to understand that for decades now , white evangelicals have , um , have been advancing to almost conflicting theories. One is that they say , you know , America was a Christian nation and and that evangelicals really are right at the center of that , um , national identity. And then , on the other hand , they are being marginalized , they are under siege. They are threatened. And the way this works , then , is that there's a sense of entitlement and a sense of threat. And this is this is has been operative in conservative evangelical spaces for a very long time. And leaders have so long used this as a way of generating support , of raising money and of consolidating their own power. You can look at , uh , at , um , Jerry Falwell , senior at pastors like Mark Driscoll. This is just a very common trope. And President Trump came along , candidate Trump came along and , uh , promised evangelicals power. He said he would fight for them. He would protect Christianity. And they responded. They called him their ultimate fighting champion. And that devotion often has only been strengthened over the last several years. They weren't looking for a family values candidate. They weren't looking for a moral exemplar. They were looking for a warrior.
S4: Um , you know , part of what inspired this.
S1: Conversation was an interview I did recently with Sarah McCammon , who is NPR's political correspondent. She wrote a book called The Evangelicals. It's all about this huge movement of people turning away from the evangelical church.
S5: Uh , it's it's not new. We've been seeing declining numbers of evangelicals , uh , for , uh , quite some time now , several years , even 10 or 15 years ago , uh , surveys would put the number of evangelicals somewhere over 30% , even as high as 33 , 35% in some surveys , at 25%. Now we're looking at a different surveys , 2021 all the way down to 14%. And so we see a real decline. Now that's a little complicated because , uh , you know , different surveys use use different kind of measuring tools. But any way you cut it , there has been a decline. Reasons that people give also vary. Uh , you know , you have some just not interested in religion anymore. In very recent years , the pandemic , uh , did have an effect on church attendance and church affiliation , certainly. But a lot of people who are leaving evangelical churches are speaking out quite vocally about the sense of hypocrisy about the , the , the notion that the values they were taught growing up. And this is certainly the case in in Sarah McCammon , his own story didn't really correspond with , um , the behavior that they were seeing from evangelicals. They were taught about love and loving your neighbor as yourself. And that wasn't really the behavior exhibited by evangelicals politically and oftentimes personally as well. Many of those leaving evangelicalism also cite abuse within evangelical churches , and the covering up of that abuse as a factor in sensing that hypocrisy. And many have also expressed discomfort with the treatment of LGBTQ folks within evangelical spaces. Um , how large an exodus is ? I don't want to overstate that case , because what we're also seeing is an influx into evangelicalism , uh , in recent years. Uh , and the folks who are now taking up that , that identity of evangelical are largely not doing so for any theological reason , not even any sense of religious practice. But they are now taking up that identity because of their political allegiance.
S1:
S2: Uh , and what I have found is that there have been so many people who are who have left evangelical spaces , as Christian said , uh , in part due to two primary factors , and both of which she mentioned was this kind of hypocrisy , meaning that the ways in which they've been taught to what love looks like has often been , um , conflated with perhaps just care. Whereas love is understood as just providing basic needs , or love is understood as providing leadership or authority. But that love finds a it's shallow in that it doesn't actually care about the , um , we might say the spiritual well being , the whole person. Right. That's actually not concerned about their own , uh , depth of how they understand themselves to be human. If their notion of what it means to be human runs counter to these dominant ideas they've been taught , right ? If they find themselves as being a person who's same gender loving , or if they recognize that they they are in fact black , or they are in fact Latinx , and some of these theologies actually undermine their own agency and sovereignty , or that they're women , and they actually do believe that women should be able to speak in church and , and be able to preach. And so as they are realizing that the notions that they've been taught about what love is from this space aren't actually love , but often at best could be seen as care , but more often are used to maintain power. They have become disillusioned. And simultaneously , particularly in my congregation , there's been many people who have left because they are queer Christians. They are trying to find a way to make sense of their sexuality and sexual identities in light of their faith. Um , you know , I've been fortunate that after the pandemic , when we started worshiping face to face , like our church , um , not only has resumed it's numbers that I had prior to that , but it's growing in part because I think the the pandemic revealed a lot of those , um , structural flaws that I mentioned about love and anti-LGBTQ agenda , in part because of the reaction to George Floyd and everything else that happened. With that , it just exposed a lot of the hypocrisy. And so people who tried to leave and maybe did leave still wanted to experience a kind of notion of belongingness in the depth of the sacred that that we could offer. And so they they found my church , and I've been I've been grateful. Wow.
S1: Wow. And , Amanda , I know you've got thoughts on that too. I'm also curious to know if x evangelicals , uh , if you will , are the only ones turning away from organized religion or or are we seeing this with other denominations and even other religions , too ? Yeah.
S3: I mean , I don't think it's unique to expand , but I think it's more predominant with the angelic movement. And I think that's because of both what Kristin and , uh , Christopher said about hypocrisy. But it's also a matter of integrity. It's a matter of being able to see how , uh , many of these churches have taken the central message of our faith , and that's a gospel of love and turned it into a false idol of power. And , you know , we did talk about Trump earlier. Christian nationalism predates Trump and will live long after his political career is over , whenever that may be. So it's not just about him , but I think it is unique in this moment , in the way that he has used Christian nationalism to try to galvanize political support for him. And we saw that. Really starkly at work in the insurrection on January 6th , 2021. That was with all of those symbols of Christian nationalism and the way the ideology really worked to infuse this cause. That was at first just a political cause , and to one that had religious fervor as well. And the violence associated with that. And I think that that moment in history turned off a huge number of people , um , not just from evangelicalism , but from Christianity in general.
S1: And we've spent a lot of time talking about white Christian nationalism. But I'm curious to hear you all's thoughts on the role that the black church plays in all of this , too. I'm sure there are some who actually subscribe to many of the Christian nationalist ideas , while others certainly fight against it. Reverend Carter , I'll start with you.
S2: Yeah , there are. And unfortunately , what you find is that , you know , patriarchy doesn't require whiteness. And so the churches that you would identify and the clergy that you might identify as adopting these principles , are all churches run by men that , again , are , um , parroting some of these ideas of patriarchal authority as a way of maintaining or receiving a blessing from God , and that this is divinely ordained and this is how it ought be structured. And so it's no coincidence that you've seen a minor increase , but an increase nonetheless of of black men and other men of color who are supportive of Donald Trump and that kind of white Christian nationalist movement. If you look at some of the leaders of the Christian nationalist movement , they're not all white. You know , there's a lot of Latinx folks in there. And so , um , it speaks to the fact that that patriarchy and patriarchal values are deeply embedded in this. And this was this notion of institutionalized sexism as a way for men to reclaim what they believe , some kind of lost , um , power and some lost , um , agency. Uh , and and I know I think Kristen may have mentioned something about this earlier. I mean , I think some of this is a bit of an illusion , right ? There's this idea that something , this entitlement , that people believe something has been taken away from them , when in fact it's never really been given to them. And the data would show they actually still have more than others. But it's this idea , right ? If you repeat this narrative , um , that affirmative action is actually making things , you know , that making things easier for people of color and for women , or that it's hard for , you know , certain people to get jobs , people begin to buy into it , even though it's actually not true. But it is important , I think , for for me to say that there has been and I'm sure will be , uh , churches led by men of color who participate in this framework because they are trying to get a piece of that power.
S1:
S5: And there's interesting survey data that we have on the prevalence of Christian nationalism in black Christian spaces. And on the one hand , you have somewhat surprising numbers registering when you ask questions that are traditionally seen as markers of adherence to Christian nationalism , like America should be a Christian nation and so on. But when you just scratch beneath the surface just a little bit , what you see is in black Christian spaces , what that means often looks very different than what it means in white Christian spaces , almost a complete divide between black Christians and white Christians on nearly every political issue. Right ? So we're really kind of looking at two different phenomenon. And I think that at the most basic level , the key difference between white Christian nationalism and what we see in terms of ideas of Christian America in the black church tradition , is that white Christian nationalism is always trying to , uh , kind of shrink the , uh , democratic access , uh , and , and in black Christian spaces , when you're talking about Christian America , the civil rights movement , very much motivated by Christian teachings , right ? Martin Luther King Jr , and beloved community , and just through and through. But their Christianity was used to open up democratic access , right , to invite people in to the American project. And that is a fundamental distinction , because with white Christian nationalism , it is always in us versus them. There are real Americans , true Americans , and they ought to have the power. They must have the power. And then there's everybody else. So that's a fundamental difference between , uh , most black Christians who might check the Christian America box and white Christians who would do so.
S1: Still ahead.
S3:
S1: You're listening to KPBS Midday Edition. Welcome back to KPBS Midday Edition. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. We've been talking about Christian nationalism and the influence of evangelicalism on American politics today. We're also discussing this phenomenon of evangelicals , a wave of people moving away from the evangelical movement for political reasons or otherwise. I'm speaking with Reverend Christopher Carter. He's associate professor of theology at the University of San Diego and also pastor of the Loft at Westwood United Methodist Church in Los Angeles. Also with us , Amanda Tyler , executive director of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty , and Kristin Kobus Dumais. She's a professor of history at Calvin University. She's also the author of Jesus and John Wayne. And now I want to talk more about where we go from here. As Amanda mentioned earlier , Christian nationalism isn't going away overnight. So what happens next ? Amanda , I'll start with you on that.
S3: Well , I think the first step is gaining awareness around what Christian nationalism is and how it's an urgent threat to both American democracy and to the Christian religion. And I think that a large number and vast community of people have been doing the work of trying to understand Christian nationalism and describe the threat to the American people. I mean , one thing we haven't mentioned to date is how Christian nationalism in the American context is being informed by and informing religious nationalism on a global scale as well. And so I think it's important for us to think about this not just as an American problem , but is one that has , I think , unique characteristics given American history as we've talked about. And so once we gain awareness , then I think it's incumbent on people to work in their communities to try to dismantle Christian nationalism , to stand against it as fundamentally anti-democratic as authoritarian in nature , as something that could lead. And I'm not trying to be alarmist here , but could lead to an authoritarian , authoritarian theocracy if we are not careful. Um , and I see , you know , really concerning signs of that , including in court cases around the country that are happening now. You know , there was a much reported case out of the Alabama Supreme Court where one of the the chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court wrote a concurring opinion that used Bible verses throughout his opinion as legal justification for trying to end IVF treatments in the state of Alabama. There are other examples of very extreme cases of Christian nationalism called Dominionism , or the Seven Mountains Mandate , where there are people trying to take over , um , all sectors of society , including the government , with this very narrow Christian view. So if this isn't a call to action to people to get involved , I don't I don't know what could be. And so I there are um , groups around the country , including the ones that I help organize Christians against Christian nationalism , of people who aren't just trying to learn about it , but actually trying to fashion interventions in their communities and just generally standing up for core principles of religious freedom for all that we all belong , regardless of religious belief. And in order for pluralism to thrive , in order for all people to be able to practice their religion , then we need to be sure that government doesn't take sides when it comes to religion.
S1: And Amanda , I do you you mentioned religious nationalism and its global impact.
S3: So I think about Viktor Orban in Hungary , for instance , in that authoritarian system , and how people who are pushing for Christian nationalism here are trying to emulate what's happening in Hungary and trying to import that level of authoritarianism onto American democracy. And we also see examples of Hindu nationalism , for instance , in India. And I think what's happening in Gaza is an example of religious nationalism as well. And so there are so many different points of view and how religious nationalism is showing up around the world. And so it's important that we not think about American Christian nationalism is operating as something that's distinct or different , but rather , you know , I think that's a kind of American. Exceptionalism to think that it can't happen here , right when that is just simply not the case , that we have a very young democracy. We we it's only been within the last few decades that all people in the United States have had full citizenship rights , including full voting rights. We are still trying to , I think , live into the promise of of what it means to be a multiracial , multi-religious democracy. And it is incumbent on all of us to stand up for that now and not think we couldn't fall into what's happening around the world today , where we see religious nationalism oppressing those whose religion is not reflected by those in power.
S1: Whom we we've been talking obviously about , um , Christian nationalism , white Christian nationalism. Do you all think it is time to sort of divorce , uh , Christianity from nationalism ? Um , and when we're having these conversations and that Christianity is really sort of just being used as a cloak for white nationalist ideology.
S5: So as a Christian myself , um , you know , that's an interesting kind of theological question. And I might even say amen to that. Uh , as a historian , I simply cannot separate the two. Right ? As a historian , I have to treat Christianity as what Christians do , what people who consider themselves Christians have done. And so I find myself going back and forth. There is a kind of theological ideal that we can hold to in that I think it is incumbent upon Christians right now to kind of fight for the tradition and to push back against. And part of that fight is going to be theological. And and so I'm all in on that. But that's a kind of internal conversation. But as somebody who kind of comments on this tradition and studies this historically , I can't quite let Christianity off the hook that easily. Uh , because there is no pure Christianity. There is only the Christianity that is enacted and , uh , and kind of lived historically. And so I'm kind of caught in that conundrum. So I guess I would push back against the framing just a bit. That said , I do think it's important that Christians fight this , uh , within their ranks , and that's extremely difficult inside these spaces. You see a lot of people pushing back are at a great disadvantage. They're up against massive networks , um , hundreds of millions of dollars , actually billions of dollars of funding. All of which is to say , is , yes , Christians have to kind of contend for the tradition here and fight to defend democracy. And when they are doing that , they're going to run up against , uh , in some spaces , some really stiff competition. And so it really , as a matter said , it's time for everybody to step up and to invest in , in what may well be the , the battle for our democracy.
S4: Well , Amanda.
S1:
S3: But what the Bible does have are , of course , these core values , um , that are imparted for Christians , particularly through the teachings and the life example of Jesus. And Jesus spoke much more about care for the poor , um , care for people who are oppressed or discriminated against , um , than any of the other hot button moral issues that are dominating , uh , a lot of the talk radio , for instance , about what it looks like to be a Christian. Um , and so I think it's really incumbent on Christians to return to the teachings of Jesus and to see what does it mean to love God through love of neighbor , um , in this moment. And that means rejecting policies that are discriminatory , that pursue any kind of inequality , including income inequality. Um , you know , we talked about money being so well funded in these movements. Um , and that continues to perpetuate this caste system that we have in this country. It's both a racial and a class caste system , um , that is , uh , inherent in what it means to be an American as well.
S4: And , Reverend Carter.
S1:
S2: Um , as by by we , I mean a coalition of people of faith. But. And also a coalition of people who actually believe in pluralistic democracy. They may have absolutely nothing to do with a particular faith commitment , other than they don't want to live in a theocracy. Right. And so what does it look like for us to collaborate and to work together ? And I think this requires a few things. I think it requires first among for Christians , um , that are , uh , who are against this kind of Christian nationalism to do , as I was mentioning a little bit earlier , to , to develop a , a deep story , like a story of identity , of who they are that's tied to an anti oppressive narrative that's tied to a laboratory narrative. Um , this is similar to the kind of narratives that you read about within slave religion , right ? Within the religion of , uh , the kind of Christianity that that women practiced , you know , uh , a Christianity that critiques empire , a religion that uplifts those who are marginalized. Fundamentally , I would say it's a kind of Christianity that that views , um , sin as a failure to love. And I think when we think about it in that particular kind of way , recognizing that how asking ourselves , how does how can we create a society that is rooted in love , that actually uplifts the poor , the marginalized , the oppressed , that takes seriously the injustices that have been created historically and tries to actually repair them rather than pretend they didn't happen. And so understanding who we are and who we have been , and allowing that to be the story with which we lean into and grow from to determine who we want to be , I think is is going to be critical. And lastly , like I said , is to recognize this is going to take a lot of work. Um , like these other organizations are so well funded , like so well funded. If you look at how they were able to dismantle Roe v Wade , you're talking about years of planning and meticulous work and financial well-being. And I , I it almost feels to me as though there was this expectation that once this rule had been passed , that it would never be dismantled , which isn't which wasn't true. I was just speaking with Bryan Stevenson a few weeks ago , who's a founder of the Legacy Museum Equal Justice Initiative. And one of the things we were talking about was we weren't sure that if Brown v board went to the Supreme Court again , we weren't sure that it would actually like pass like we like literally , we don't know. Right. So we have went through a regression in so many ways. Uh , and so we have to recognize the work of our ancestors and what they have done to get us to this point. And so I'm thinking , particularly my own ancestors as a black American , to know that we have the strength and resilience to do that work , and also perhaps more than we even expect. And so building coalitions , developing a story , recognizing that the work needs to be done , um , and gearing up for it , I think , is how we begin to move forward.
S1: This was a fascinating conversation. I've been speaking with Reverend Christopher Carter , associate professor of theology at the University of San Diego. He's also pastor of The Loft at Westwood United Methodist Church in Los Angeles. Reverend , thank you very much.
S2: Thank you for having me.
S1: Also , Amanda Tyler , executive director of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty. Amanda , thank you.
S3: Oh , thanks for the conversation.
S1: And Christian Kobus Dumais , she's a historian of American Christianity and professor at Calvin University. She's also the author of Jesus and John Wayne Christian. Thank you.
S5: Thank you for such a thoughtful conversation.
S1: Thanks for joining us today. If you ever miss a show , you can always download the Midday Edition podcast wherever you listen. Also , we love hearing your feedback. Give us a call (619) 452-0228. You can leave a message or you can email us at midday at pbs.org. Don't forget to watch Evening Edition tonight at five for in-depth reporting on San Diego issues. I'm Jade Hindman. I'll see you back here tomorrow. Have a great day , everyone.
