S1: Welcome. In San Diego , it's Jade Hindman. Today we are talking about the impact of bullying into adulthood and how to stop it. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. One of the first places bullying happens is at school , but it doesn't always stop there. Nearly one third of people reported they've been bullied as adults. A new book delves into the problem of adult bullying and its impact on our workplaces and society at large. Bill Eddie is a San Diego based lawyer , therapist , mediator and co-founder of the High Conflict Institute. His new book is called Our New World of Adult Bullies. Bill , welcome to midday.
S2: Thanks so much. Glad to be on.
S1: So glad to have you on today. So there is a lot of attention paid to bullies in school children , but you explore what happens when bullying follows us into adulthood , whether we're the aggressor or the victim. Talk to me about that and why you think we need to do better and to better understand adult bullies.
S2: Well , I think what's happening is it's increasing. And I think there's a big jump with the pandemic. That's actually when I started writing this book was the end of 2020. Just seeing a pattern that occurred in all , all parts of society , families , workplace , communities online , of course , but nationally , internationally. And so I wanted to tell people about the patterns of behavior , because sooner or later , people are going to have a bully in their life. So that's why we want to let people know and also let people know what they can do to kind of disengage and calm down. Bullying. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. So what makes a bully in the first place is this. Is that something that you talk about in the book's introduction ? Yes.
S2: So what I talk about in the book is that bullying is really a pattern of behavior. It isn't just one incident. It's a pattern of behavior that makes kind of a power imbalance. And the person the target often referred to , um , experiences that emotionally as well as , you know , intellectually , physically. And what happens to me , one of the easiest ways to think about it is when it becomes personal. So let's say a bully at work , you're working on a project and they start saying you're an idiot , or I don't like the way you look or you're crazy or your morals are weak. It's about personal characteristics , and that's when you start feeling uncomfortable. But it also can be about your reputation. Wait'll I tell everybody about the mistake that you made. And so you develop this kind of sense of fear and discomfort. And as a pattern progresses , people lose self-esteem , they lose sleep , they have stomach aches , headaches , etc. if it gets bad enough. So to me , the first line that's crossed is when they make it personal about you as a person.
S1: That reminds me of what recently happened in Congress when yes , the conversation suddenly got very personal.
S2: And that was the key , actually helped someone write an article about that , because that's very much the kind of thing that we deal with in high conflict Institute consulting with managers , employees , people running public meetings. And we actually developed what we call the respectful meeting policy , so that if something like that happened and we were involved , we would have told the chairperson immediately cut that off and say , hey , that's personal. It's not allowed here. You need to stop using personal language. Can you agree to do that ? And usually the person to oh , oh okay. Yeah. And if they don't then the meeting chair can stop the meeting , take a break , talk to that person. Decide if that person should leave the meeting. If it's a public meeting , they may even need to be removed and then bring the meeting back together , or decide if that meeting should be terminated. And the idea with this policy is that everybody else in the meeting supports the meeting chair. Sad to say , it's a little bit extra structured , but in today's world that sometimes what you need , especially in public meetings.
S1:
S2: In fact , because the chairperson didn't take action , that's the person I fault the most. But then two other people started responding also with personal attacks. You know , you baby you whatever characterizing the person's body build. And an interesting thing is that's often how people react who aren't bullies because they feel defensive. But if you're prepared to. If he had had some training and conflict resolution , they could have easily just said , Mr. Chairperson , please deal with this and not gotten emotionally engaged because now it looks like there's three bullies and there might just have been one in that kind of situation. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Well , let me ask you this.
S2: In other words , most children at some point bully somebody else , but they experience that this doesn't go well. They get in trouble , something like that. Let's just say , you know , I had a brother and I know I bullied my brother a little , and it didn't get very far because my parents said , hey , you got to cut that out or we're going to send you to your room. And so also my brother got to be about my size. And so I couldn't bully him. But most kids experiment with bullying a little bit. But by the time people are adults , maybe there's 5 to 10% of people that really continue on to be more polished , more refined , um , more aggressive in some ways , because they may have gotten through a lot of childhood with getting away with being a bully. So the difference is you're getting a more polished form of bullying , which is actually more dangerous.
S1: Well , a lot of the chapters in your book contain the word power. So tell me about how power plays into adult bullying.
S3: Well , it really.
S2: Is a power play. And what's interesting is I explained bullies won a relationship most of the time in which they dominate , where they win , and the target of their bullying loses. They like that , the security of that ongoing , um , relationship. But in many cases today , people start out in equal relationships or relatively equal , like a manager or an employee. There's a little bit of a power imbalance , but by and large , we're equal people and people change positions all the time. So we generally approach things as equal. So bullies have to trick you into being in this dominated position. And so I talk about these as ten hidden powers that they're hidden because they're not overt about that. So like one example is having an unrestrained personality. They keep going. They don't stop where the usual , you know , markers are , hey , you shouldn't go beyond this. They just keep going. And yet people go , well , they'll stop themselves. They'll realize what they're doing , they'll come to their senses , but they don't stop themselves. So I call that a hidden power. Once you know that , you start looking at what's the pattern of behavior this person starting to feel to me , like they're not going to stop themselves. Maybe they're a bully and I need to get some help or I need to set limits , etc. so that's to me , that's that's just one of the hidden powers that's really not hidden. If your eyes are open.
S1: Well , you know , I mean , bully is it's taken much more seriously in schools today than in decades past. And there are more protocols in place.
S3:
S2: Having policies about bullying and what's interesting , you know , sexual harassment is illegal , but bullying isn't. And there's just a few kind of , you know , government agencies or places where bullying is really , uh , clearly forbidden. So for one is to have more established policies , to have laws that say , you know , there's going to be legal punishments , um , for bullying. And there are in other countries , I speak in Australia once a year and they've they've had anti-bullying in the workplace laws. They're going on about 15 years. And so having established policies , that's one thing. A second thing is just the principle of setting limits that people individually can set limits and say , hey , you can't talk to me that way. And so having it be comfortable and encouraged to set limits , don't just tolerate and hope people will stop. Hopefully my book is an eye opener that you can't just hope you have to actually do something. Then also bystanders getting the help of bystanders , bystanders just being able to say , hey , that's enough Joe or that's enough Jane. And so playing a role in stopping that kind of behavior , then having consequences. So if you think in terms of setting limits. As always having a consequence that you can control. So you set limits. Tell someone you can't talk to me that way. If you do , I'm going to end this conversation. They keep talking that way. Say , okay , you've chosen for me to end the conversation and I'm going to walk away and you let me know when you're ready to talk civilly. That's just like a real simple example. But we have to start thinking in terms of posted policies , in terms of setting limits , terms of bystanders helping out and in terms of having consequences. So I think , you know , we didn't maybe need this 10 or 15 years ago , but now we do. And before we get too , too deep into this , because it seems to be escalating , I think we really need to kind of rein this back in and , and have some limits set and some consequences imposed.
S1:
S2: There's a couple main causes I think of. One is our screens that our screens show us images. And so television , cable news , movies , social media , on our cell phones , we're seeing images of bad behavior. And in order to compete we see more and more images of bad behavior. So what I call high emotion media , which , by the way , KPBS is a good example of not being that way , but high emotion media shows us if it bleeds , it leads. You know , what's the worst behavior today ? So what we're often seeing in the news is bullies on an airplane this week , bullies on the highway , bullies in Congress , um , bullies online that the news is like bully news. Almost. But the problem is that increases itself , that causes it to escalate to copy were , you know , mirroring species. We like to mirror each other's behavior. So the more we're shown , the more we do. But that's just one part. The other part is bullies used to be kept more on the fringes of society. Let's say bullies were 5% of people , and families would say , hey , you know , this is someone we got to keep kind of under wraps. And in the workplace , people would get fired or kind of pushed into a corner in communities. They didn't have much , much weight in a community. Well , what's happening is bullies now are finding community through social media. They're finding each other , reinforcing each other , encouraging each other , creating a culture in a sense of where bullying is okay and it's good. You went out there and you bullied somebody good for you.
S1: And I mean , given what you've described as bullying , I mean , in many ways , our society , as you touched on , really rewards that behavior by giving it attention and even attaching success to it. I mean , what are your thoughts on that ? Absolutely.
S2: I totally agree with you , Jade. I think what's happening is and it's ironic , but in the last 20 , 30 years , we've made government into entertainment. So politics has rather than focus on governing , and the boredom of government has become a form of entertainment. And so in entertainment you reward extreme behaviors because that's what grabs your attention. You go to movies to see people blowing things up and treating each other badly and maybe reconciling at the end. So what really is rewarded and entertainment shouldn't be rewarded in government. Government needs to be thoughtful , reflective things like that , society discussions , etc. so we've turned it upside down. And now , for example , politics is entertainment and so it has the extremes. But part of extremes and you see this in the movie industry is you have to be more extreme for the next big movie and then more extreme for the next big movie. So in a sense , we're seeing bullying behavior being outdone by new , even bigger bullying behaviors. So my concern is we're we're kind of expanding the universe of bullying , and we've got to start setting limits on it before it just gets a little bit too out of control.
S1: This is KPBS Midday Edition. We're back after the break. Welcome back. You're listening to KPBS Midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman. What's the difference between setting boundaries and expectations in the workplace or just in life and bullying ? Because sometimes those things can get confused and and can be difficult for folks to distinguish.
S3: Well , if you.
S2: Think about it , most people restrain themselves. I like to say 90% of people at least , maybe 95%. So the bullies may be 5% , 5 to 10% of people potentially. So I think when you set expectations and boundaries , someone's hired in a new workplace , it's how to do things. It's not about restraining yourself and how not to do things. People come into the workplace already knowing that socially what not to do. So I think what we're seeing is boundaries and expectations in a job are starting to now have to pay attention to personal behavior. In other words , this is how you do your job , but also you can't act that way socially and a good place I think of. I've done consulting and training with some of the high tech people in , say , Silicon Valley , and the idea they like to talk about is people with sharp elbows. That's their word for the the brilliant tech people who have a hard time interpersonally. So we come in to try to , you know , soften those sharp elbows. And that's the area that we didn't used to have to worry about. Used to be boundaries and expectations for your job , but not for your personal interactions. So bullying is really interpersonal interpersonal interactions. And that's that's why that's why it's catching everybody by surprise. We shouldn't have to set boundaries there. People should stop themselves but they don't.
S1: Well , so the subtitle of your book has two provocative questions how to spot them and how to stop them. And by them you mean bullies.
S3:
S2: I put six strategies in the book. First of all is you recognize the pattern. This is bullying behavior. Oops. This isn't going to stop itself. I'm going to have to do something either myself or get some help from people around me or from the institution. So recognize there's a pattern of bullying going on that's involving you. The second is pulling the plug on the bully. In many bully situations , people reinforce it not not on purpose , partly by not doing anything , partly by keeping it secret. That's one of the biggest things about bullying is people keep it secret. That's why we're not having it talked about much up to now. So pulling the plug and I give an example in there of of a woman whose boss was was sexually harassing people and she didn't want to talk about it , but eventually she realized , hey , this is just going too far. And so she didn't keep it a secret anymore and the person got fired or pushed out of their position. So that's the second. The third thing is setting limits. And this may be the biggest area we need to say here is the boundary. Here is the line you can't cross. You can't cross with me , you can't cross in our organization. So setting limits is something that people are afraid to do or uncomfortable. It feels rude to say , hey you , I'm interrupting you. You have to stop talking to me that way. That feels rude to most people , but you have to do that with bullies. The fourth is imposing consequences , and often , as I described with the 60 examples in the book , often that's legal consequences. That's where people really get stopped because setting boundaries wasn't enough , then educating others. That's the fifth thing. And the sixth is standing with others saying , you know , you can't do that. That's enough , Joe , we're standing behind this person. Leave her alone or leave him alone. So those are six strategies , individual and also organizational and peer group strategies.
S1: Good advice. What is the impact of bullying ? I mean what impact does it have on adults in the workplace.
S2: Well the individual um , it can be quite severe. People get stomachaches , headaches. They they can't sleep , they take days off , they take sick days. So individually it can really cut into a person's physical health , mental health , self-esteem , etc.. Organizationally , what I've seen. Over and over again is there is a bully say , in the middle of the organization , maybe there are a health care professional administrator doctor or somebody who's bullying other people , but they're not confronted with that and they're tolerated. And so people are leaving. Uh , we have a training example with High Conflict Institute of people leaving. There's this one surgeon who , like , throws things during surgery at the nurses , and the nurses quit. And so the idea is , is that people just just leave and you lose good people , and you keep people that aren't great , even if they're productive , if they're a bully , it hurts your organization. So you lose good people. And we see that in the news , too. You see higher up companies , people leaving who were good people staying , who weren't so individually and personally , but also the whole productivity of a team may go downhill because the whole team is walking on eggshells , um , just trying to cope instead of being excited and happy to go to work when everyone dreads going to work , you're not getting as much done.
S1: Well , there you go. Bill Edie's new book is called Our New World of Adult Bullies How to spot them , How to Stop Them. Bill. Very interesting stuff. Thanks so much for being here.
S3: Thank you for.
S2: Having me on.
