Is It Ethical For A Healthy Person To Choose Not To Get A COVID-19 Vaccine?

Speaker 1: 00:00 As the first COVID vaccinations take place across America. There are no reports of hospitals requiring their healthcare workers to get the shots at this point. The decision about whether to get vaccinated is up to individuals and the availability of the vaccine. But as we continue to see more vaccine available and more people eligible to be vaccinated, will vaccinations continue to be viewed as an individual choice is a healthy person's decision not to get vaccinated and ethically defensible choice. And on the other hand, would it be right for businesses and organizations to require people to get a COVID shot? Joining me is Michael [inaudible], founding director of the UC San Diego research ethics program and co-founder of the center for ethics in science and technology. Michael, welcome back to the show. Speaker 2: 00:52 Good to see you, Marie. Now Speaker 1: 00:54 There's been a lot of joy and relief expressed this week about the first COVID vaccinations, but in the background of all that is polling that shows a substantial number of Americans say they won't get vaccinated. What do you make of that contradiction? Speaker 2: 01:10 Well, it's, it's not surprising that there would be some people who would say no, because there are some people say no to almost anything. Uh, what is disconcerting for many is that so high percentage of people are aware of getting the vaccine. And when I say, what do I make of it? You know, I, I, when you ask what I, what, which I make of it, it seems to me that there are probably many reasons why people would not want to get the vaccine. Most of them, um, don't balance well with the fears we have now. So what I make of it as is some concern about this trend, Speaker 1: 01:47 What about people who say they feel this vaccine hasn't been developed too fast and they're wary of it? Is that an ethically defensible point for not getting the shot? Speaker 2: 01:58 It's definitely a good question. Um, but I've had the good fortune to speak with people who are actually working on developing vaccines. And what I've, what I've heard is that, um, a really compelling argument that in the face of a dire emergency resources were made available that have never been made available so quickly. Um, the very finest minds, not just in this country, but in the world have done all. They can to develop a vaccine on an accelerated timeline. Nothing is guaranteed, but it is remarkable how strong the evidence is that what they have is safe and effective. Speaker 1: 02:41 As I mentioned, hospitals are not requiring their eligible staff members to get a COVID shot. So do you see this as a matter of individual choice Speaker 2: 02:52 In this country, almost everything as a matter of individual choice. Um, and I, I was thinking about this just earlier today. The question is at what point would we require people to do this? How bad would it have to be right now? Um, it's probably getting pretty close to that. Mark. Uh, we're seeing our hospitals filling up, um, emergency rooms are over capacity. We're trying to find medical staff because there aren't enough medical staff and the cases and risks of illness and death are continuing to rise. So at what point would we require it? My hope is we won't have to, Speaker 1: 03:35 Well, let's say vaccinations don't become required. When does a person's hesitation about getting a vaccination become an ethical problem? Speaker 2: 03:44 Well, it's always an ethical problem. Almost every choice we make is at some level an ethical problem. Um, the ethics though that we're dealing with here vary, depending on what you decide, you're going to consider. When you say, how do I dissect this as an ethical issue, for example, um, if I say, I want to trust the available evidence that people are suffering from this disease, and it's going to get worse unless we take this vaccine, the ethical choice seems simple. You have to take the vaccine, but what if you decide that the ethical question is your fear of side effects for you or your family. Um, and you don't believe that, um, the virus is causing, um, the problems that many of us think are very real well in that case, you balance it in favor of saying, gosh, I need to be cautious. Speaker 2: 04:41 I'm not going to take this vaccine. I, you know, I have to say, um, my, my role as an ethicist is usually to try and ask questions rather than give answers. But in this case, I think the burden of proof for that argument lies with those who say that that's, that the virus isn't a problem. And right now we need an explanation of why are our hospitals filling up why our ICU is maxed out? Why are we losing medical staff? We don't have enough medical staff to be able to, to respond to the number of people who are ill. If it's not the virus, then what is it? Speaker 1: 05:18 You know, there's also a strong racial divide over trust in the vaccine. And that's based on the, the medical atrocities that African-Americans have been subjected to in our past. So is it more ethical for a black person to decide not to get vaccinated than it is for a white person? Speaker 2: 05:37 I would hesitate to, to judge, um, whether, um, somebody's experience as a black person means that they are more or less ethical because of a choice they'd make. Um, I should also make, make it clear. I think it's really important to remember that this is not just a matter of being black, but being Latin X, being native American, um, their life experiences of people in those groups are remarkably and undoubtedly different from the experience of someone like myself, who is white, the disparities, those groups face are very real. They're, well-documented in many ways, but they're certainly documented for this virus. I mean, we, we know that members of those communities are at greater risk of becoming infected at greater risk once infected of serious disease. And then if a greater risk as well of actually dying from the disease. So these disparities mean this group is at increased risk of infection, their increased risk of birth hospitalization increased risk of death. So it seems that those communities, arguably, should be more interested in taking advantage of a vaccine that at this point is probably going to help people in all groups, not just some, but having said all of that at one level, I understand what it must be like to be part of a community that has been, um, basically abused in the past. And we need to do better. Speaker 1: 07:12 I've been speaking with Michael [inaudible], he's founding director of the UC San Diego research ethics program co-founder of the center for ethics in science and technology. And Michael, thank you very much, Speaker 2: 07:24 Right. Thank you. It's been an interesting topic.