EPISODE 228: TCM Underground
TRT 32:16
CLIP What plan will you follow now? Plan Nine. Plan Nine. Oh, yes. Plan Nine deals with the resurrection of the dead.
If only we could resurrect TCM Underground, which will be broadcasting its final movie on February 24.
CLIP You see you see your stupid minds, stupid stupid.
Ed Wood’s Plan 9 from Outer Space launched TCM Underground in 2006 and now it will be the final film that airs under that brand.
Cinema Junkie The Theme bump 1 (drums)
BETH ACCOMANDO Welcome back to listener supported KPBS Cinema Junkie, I'm Beth Accomando.
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BETH ACCOMANDO Rather than mourn the passing of TCM Underground I want celebrate what it represented and applaud it for all the joy it brought to cinephiles over the years. And to praise it for rescuing some films from obscurity by introducing them to a new generation. Former TCM programmer Millie DeChirico has just co-written the book TCM UNDERGROUND: 50 Must-See Films from the World of Classic Cult and Late-Night Cinema. I will be talking to her about the films she programmed and what made them special.
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BETH ACCOMANDO TCM Underground showcased films that were ignored, unappreciated, misunderstood, maligned or sometimes just lost and in need of loving attention. As the former TCM programmer who helped define what TCM Underground meant, DeChirico did what great curators do—shared her love and passion for films that she wanted more people to see.
CLIP Because all of you of earth are idiots… hold on buster… no you hold on.
Yes, hold on while I take a quick break before getting to my interview with Millie DeChirico.
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BETH ACCOMANDO Welcome back to Cinema Junkie. As someone who has always loved cult films and films made outside the mainstream, the loss of TCM Underground is just heartbreaking. But I am delighted that Millie DeChirico and her co-author Quatoyiah Murry have highlighted 50 of the hundreds of films that aired under the TCM Underground banner in a book that we can cherish and refer back to. I began my interview by asking Millie to lay the ground rules for what kinds of film qualify for the TCM underground label.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
I think when I was programming the franchise, I was just trying to cast a wide net of possible titles. A lot of it was kind of from that kind of standard cult canon. So directors that we all know and love, like David Lynch and Ed Wood and John Waters and Roger Cormann films and whatnot. But over the years, I think I was trying to expand it a little bit and try to pull in some maybe some quirky melodramas and some offbeat comedies. So I was just trying to kind of create like a big pool to choose from. And at this point, I feel like that's kind of the thing that really unites the titles that have aired. And there was over 400 or something by the end of it. But I feel like it's anything that's just kind of a little offbeat and interesting and various levels of cult, obviously, but they all kind of just fit into this, like, late night attitude.
BETH ACCOMANDO
And it's part of that late night attitude kind of films that you feel just need to have a little more love.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
Yeah, I think so, because obviously as being a programmer, you kind of have your own perspective on that. But for me, I just thought there are titles that exist that maybe don't get readily seen as like a cult classic, but that definitely are not out there, that don't get seen very often things that are not on home video. That was kind of the case with a film like Wild Seed, which both played as part of Underground. And I also wrote about it in the book, which is that it's kind of like a teen film almost from the 60s, but it's also like it was not on home video and it rarely played on television. And it just happened to star Michael Parks, who is obviously this actor that was really affiliated with Tarantino and cult film. So it just kind of fit even though maybe the film is kind of more in line with something like Rebel Without a Cause than it would be like Blood Feast or whatever. But that for me was like making those choices, I think was definitely about that was just stuff that needed love. Right.
BETH ACCOMANDO
And you co wrote this book, so what kind of defined each of your personalities in terms of the films that you gravitated towards.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
Well, that's interesting because right out the gate, toya, when she first came to TCM, she was very interested in working with Cole film and with Underground specifically. And just from talking to her and being friends with her, I discovered we were kind of like kindred spirits. We kind of liked the same things. I sort of trusted her taste and trusted her opinions on things. And all the stuff that she really liked and championed in her writing were things that I loved, too, so there wasn't too much of that. I mean, I felt like we were both kind of similar in the stuff that we liked and our kind of positioning on the book. But I think that there was just certain genres, I think that she gravitated more towards. Like, she's a big horror fan. And not to say that I'm not a horror fan, but it was that kind of thing where it's like, well, she's going to do some horror stuff. Maybe I'll pick some other things. And of course, I'm really big into mellow trauma and, like, really quirky, strange, dramatic films involving Elizabeth Taylor or other classic actresses or whatnot. So I kind of went in that direction a little bit more.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
And I just think it was really just trying to give the book, like, a good spread. Like we wanted to cover a wide variety of things. And there are also things that I just felt like I would love to write about this film, particularly because it feels like it doesn't really get written about much versus something that was just a little bit more had been written about a lot and you could find out a lot of information about. Right. That's kind of how we went about choosing things. It's just sort of keeping these little metrics in mind.
BETH ACCOMANDO
Well, I just love kind of the diversity of the films that are in there because you have some that are, I think, underappreciated and incredibly well made, like Honeymoon Killers, but then you also have some stuff that's Hollywood produced with studios and much more mainstream. So kind of what were some of the films that you really wanted to see included in this?
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
Well, I think between Toy and I felt like we have our own sort of personal experience with films, but also we're women of color. And so we thought, okay, well, we definitely gravitate towards that. A lot of the films that we featured were either made by women or queer filmmaker or people of color. So it was just that kind of thing. And that wasn't really intentional necessarily, but it was like, we have an opportunity to kind of go through the list and pick films and why don't we talk about something like this versus, again, something that had been talked about a lot already. And you're right, some of these movies are really obscure. Like, I think the Pyramid is a perfect example of that. That's something that had aired on TCM. Underground a long time ago but is hard for people to watch because it was just like it's just not really out there for people to rent or whatnot. And that one in particular, I think people have told me about as being like a pretty obscure pick. But then when we had the opportunity to write about a John Waters movie, I was like, well, why not talk about Polyester, which is actually his most commercial film at that point.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
He had, of course, made, like, pink flamingos. But Polyester was the first one where he actually got, like, a big studio budget, because it just felt to me like, well, if everyone's going to talk about pink flamingos, then maybe we can talk about Polyester, which I actually think has a lot more transgressive moments, if you will, than a lot of people would maybe think. Right. Like I said, we were trying to cover a spread and there's definitely different levels of filmmaking and levels of money involved.
BETH ACCOMANDO
And were you selecting from films that had previously screened as part of TCM underground or were you just looking at everything?
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
Yeah, I think that we decided that to narrow the focus a little bit more that we were just going to write about the titles that it aired on Underground. And the franchise had been on for over 15 years. So we had a really big bank of titles to choose from, over 400 or so. And so that gave us a lot of options to choose from, which was.
BETH ACCOMANDO
Great, and tell people how the book is divided up because you kind of grouped the films in categories, not exactly genres, but kind of into some subcategories.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
Yeah, it's funny because we went back and forth a little bit about how to arrange the book because I'm obviously a big student of these types of books, right. So I grew up reading like, the Danny Perry cult movies books and the Psychotronic Guy to film. And I was really about film reference guides because I grew up in the era before the Internet, so that's all I had. And a lot of those books were alphabetical. Right. And so when we came to this book and trying to decide on how to organize it, we thought, okay, well, we could just do it alphabetically. Sure. But I think me being a programmer, it just was sort of like, well, I like arranging things by themes, really. And you're right, it's not specifically by genre. But we went through the list and we did see some commonalities between titles. Some of them are more broad than others. Like, there's a big section that's just kind of like mind Melters and strange films and that's kind of a catch all for a lot of different things. But then we do have films like a section that's specifically about crime and specifically about, I guess, like melodrama for the most part, but it was just fun to do it that way.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
I think it makes it kind of interesting, allows people to kind of like, pop around a little bit more than I think if it was alphabetical.
BETH ACCOMANDO
Well, and you had Patton Oswalt do your intro and one of the things he notes is he says, don't just read this book from front to back, kind of jump around and see what catches your interest. And is that kind of part of what you wanted it to be?
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
Yeah, for sure. The film is very the film sorry, I keep saying film. The book is really visual, so it is fun to kind of pop around and I think he has the right take. I mean, I certainly encourage people to do that because when you just kind of open the book and you look around, you're like, oh, there's like, all these pictures and it's very visually interesting. So I agree. Just don't read it cover to cover. Just pick it up and look through it and start in the middle, start the end, don't matter.
BETH ACCOMANDO
Well, it's also the kind of thing where if you want to try and find something you haven't seen and you're in a certain mood, it's nice because you can go like, oh, yeah, I kind of want to see something like horror. And then you have the Fright Club section with some really nice, diverse selections in there, but then you can kind of pick your mood to match what you might be looking for.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
Oh, definitely. Sometimes, yeah, you're definitely in the mood to be scared and you just pop over to that section. Or sometimes you're just like, well, I just want to watch something weird and maybe I'll head to the weird section and then watch like, head by the monkey's head or whatever. Yeah, that to me is really useful as somebody who watches a lot of movies because you don't necessarily when you're out in like, streaming services or when you're just there, you don't see things by tone, right. You see things usually alphabetically or just basically in these kind of algorithmic categories. So it's kind of cool that you could do that with the book.
BETH ACCOMANDO
Well, talking about one of the ones that's kind of the mind melters, weird ones that's out there, the Belladonna of Sadness is one that I don't think it's talked about or appreciated as much as it should.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
Yeah, it's such an interesting animated film and we were really thankful to have the opportunity to play that restored version when it came out. And I just think it's such a gem. There's just so many people that have discovered it for the first time only recently and yeah, the animation style is unreal. It's just so lyrical and beautiful. And I know that the story itself is kind of hard to process sometimes, but when you match that tone, with kind of like what you're seeing. It just creates this really interesting sort of dichotomy of content, but then this style, it's such a cool movie that I really just feel like a lot of people haven't seen it and should.
BETH ACCOMANDO
And how did you kind of gravitate towards these films initially? Was this something that you've always kind of liked these kind of movies or was there kind of some seminal moment where you saw something and said like, wow, they're making this stuff and where can I find more of it?
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
Yeah, I think when I was a teenager, I just was really interested in countercultural things like transgressive art. I was into punk rock. I just wanted to be in the world of sort of like cult film, cult music and art and books. And I just was like really interested in that sort of life. I just would go down to the city, which for me was downtown Atlanta, and I would just go sit in video stores or Tower Records or these cool in town bookstores and just sort of like look through things. And I would hang out at the video stores that I would frequent and just listen to people talk, like I listen to people come in the video store and talk about their favorite movies and whether or not this movie was going to make it to VHS because it was still a VHS era. So for me it was just sort of like everything. I just wanted to be around it. And then I watched a lot of TV and at the time there wasn't a ton of cable channels, but some of them had like late night stuff and then HBO of course was a huge thing for me.
BETH ACCOMANDO
So when you were programming TCM underground, were you kind of suggesting films that you already knew or were you kind of like seeing what they had available or what was becoming available? Did you do a lot of research to kind of find titles that would fit that kind of category?
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
Yeah, I think at the very beginning there was definitely like I made a list of things. There was like a wish list and then we kind of went down the wish list and then we were able to get a lot of that stuff and then it became like, well, let's see what's out there in catalogs. So a lot of it was coming through list of titles from studios or from distributors and saying like, oh, that seems cool, that would work, that kind of thing. And then I think eventually as the I guess that's sort of like over the years we've seen so much restoration and so many bluray releases of titles in the cult world. I mean, there's so many boutique labels now and archives are doing a lot of this like cult movie restoration work now that it almost became a thing where suddenly there was great quality masters for things that, I was like, well, cool. Now they're kind of coming to me. The world has changed so much where we're not necessarily having to hunt down things as much as we used to, which is great. It just makes my job easier to have somewhere like Aqua or somewhere like Vinegar Syndrome, say, hey, we're working on this, this and this.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
That was really cool to see all that. And it was obviously very helpful. But, yeah, I mean, to have a weekly franchise for 15 or so years, you just have to like you don't want to outdo yourself at the beginning and then be like, oh, no, now what? There's a method to it that I figured out over the years. But, yeah, like I said, it just had gotten better at the very beginning. It was hard to I mean, it was like, oh, gosh, I don't even know. This studio had a copy of this movie and it was just in really bad shape, or they didn't have TV rights. And then all of a sudden, all this stuff gets worked out somehow and it's on Criterion Collection and you're like, oh, I got a Criterion master of Multiple Maniacs. I cannot believe that that happened.
BETH ACCOMANDO
And just to reference another one of the categories, I do love the domestic disturbances because this brings together a lot of films that maybe wouldn't always be grouped together. But, I mean, these are wonderful. You've got polyester and eating raoul and possession and remember my name. And then secret ceremony.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
Yeah, this was obviously a section that I was very involved in because I like melodrama and even the classic stuff like the Douglas Circ stuff. And I love a Joan Crawford 50s vibe. But I felt like there were certain titles that I think were sort of generally categorized as like a horror film. Like Butcher Baker nightmare Maker. That when we were kind of coming up with how to organize the book. It was kind of like well, this movie is also kind of a melodrama too because it deals with, like, an aunt and her nephew and there's kind of this kind of melodramatic element to it because she is, like, kind of delves in that sort of granddom Ginol theme which is an older woman who's trying to trap somebody that she loves. Right. And I'm like, that is a function of melodrama as well as horror. Right? And so I felt like, okay, well, a lot of these movies are weird melodramas. And the same thing with Secret Ceremony, which I wouldn't say that Secret Ceremony is a straight up horror film, but that movie is very strange and it definitely deals with family. And the other thing about it is that these are largely stories about women too, which melodrama, I think, was maligned for so long because they were women's pictures and they were about women's stories and stuff.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
So I kind of wanted to reclaim a little bit of that and say, well, these are actually, like, really interesting, compelling, deeply strange titles sometimes, even though they're sort of pushed off into that melodrama category.
BETH ACCOMANDO
You mentioned. Wild Seed was one of these films that was kind of less well known. Are there any other titles in this collection where they were kind of films that were discoveries for you? They were films that you didn't come to kind of TCM underground knowing that this was something I wanted to champion, but something that you just like, wow, I haven't heard of this. I'm going to see it. And now I love it.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
Yeah. I will say that we included a movie by Sarah Jacobson called Mary Jane is not a version anymore. And I had known who Sarah Jacobson was when I was growing up because we're kind of contemporaries. Like, she was definitely around in the that's kind of like when I came of age. So I remember hearing about her and I remember her doing music videos for bands that I liked. But it wasn't until her box set came out from Akva that I was able to really see some of these films. And I mean, I had never seen Mary Jane's not a version anymore until fairly recently. And especially in the restored quality that it's in because it's truly an independent film. So it's like that thing where I'm like, well, I'm kind of seeing it for the first time. And this is just such an amazing film. And it's made by a woman director. And she had a lot to say about female sexuality and female pleasure. And that's just stuff that was still, I think, really bold and interesting even now. So I just was like, when we had the opportunity to even really talk about her films, I was like, let's do it.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
I was very impressed by she had a very short career. She died pretty young in her 30s. But everything she did was really impressive to me. And you could just say, like, gosh, if she had lived, she could have made so many incredible things. And she was such a bold person, too, like, just the way that she had to self promote a lot of her films. And there's a grand tradition of that. And cult cinema is people who really have to go out there and do all their own work to get the film seen. So I don't know, I was just so happy to have finally been able to play that on the network, especially because it would have been unheard of, I think, if it hadn't been restored. I mean, I wouldn't have even known where to get television rights for something like that.
BETH ACCOMANDO
And what do you think is the appeal of these kind of films? Because there are films that are classics that are great, that sometimes you see a film where you love it, it's great, it's well made, but it's not the kind of film that you necessarily want to watch over and over again. But a lot of these underground titles are really films where I don't know what the connection is, but you just feel like you need to revisit them regularly. And I'm just wondering, what do you think is kind of that appeal of these particular kinds of films?
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
Well, that's an interesting question because I think for me, personally, the idea of watching some of these films again over and over, it's almost this, like, confirmation that I am really, like, I'm championing this film. You know what I mean? Like, it's kind of like this idea of like, did I actually just see that? I know we saw it. I know we were watching this crazy cult film together and we all processed it, but then I'm like, I need to go back and actually watch it again. Did I think I saw what I just saw. So there's some of that confirmation that it exists type of thing, right? But I also think, too, the whole thing occult, really, is that it's stuff that you can share. And so a lot of times I find myself, like, rewatching some of these films with other people who haven't seen it. And that's fun. It's a fun thing to kind of watch these titles again with other people with different perspectives and different attitudes. That's kind of how I felt about possession, actually, was that it's one of those movies that I have seen many, many times. But then I've watched them with different people in my life.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
So I've watched it with family, I've watched it with friends, different types of friends. And so I'm always waiting to hear what the reaction is from people. And so I think that that is part of it, too, is that you're just kind of like reevaluating the film on your own, but then also having different cinema experiences with other folks is another reason to watch them again.
BETH ACCOMANDO
Well, you mentioned watching with other people, and I do feel like a lot of these films are films that you want to see with a group because you want to know is everybody is amazed at this particular moment. That kind of what the hell just happened? And when you all see it together and you feel like a uniform gasp of the audience or something, it just seems like there's something about that community experience of seeing it in a theater with other people that makes these films particularly good to watch.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
Yeah, I mean, I have to say, we did a screening of Xana Du when the book came out here in Atlanta and it was like, it's just so fun to watch a movie like that with other people and people like singing at the end and people finding certain parts funny. I see that movie by myself and it's just not the same. Yes, I can watch Santa do alone and figure out the headspace to process it on my own. But then when you're just with other people, sometimes there's a part of the movie that people really connect with it. You're like, oh, I never even thought about that. Or, It's funny to watch other people react to something that maybe you missed or maybe you didn't think about in that way. So, yeah, the communal aspect is really funny, and it feels like you're kind of like going through something too, like you're all on a roller coaster together or something like that. It's, like, really fun.
BETH ACCOMANDO
Well, sometimes when they're really bad films, I do remember seeing the room repeatedly with friends, and it's like you've been in the foxhole together and you shared this experience and you have the same kind of PTSD about certain things, and.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
It'S like you bond over it 100%. I totally agree.
BETH ACCOMANDO
A lot of these films, too, feel like they feel like comfort food in a sort of way. They're the films that you return to because there is something and I think there's also something special about films that don't have everything at their disposal in terms of budget and studio backing that makes what they've accomplished kind of, like, all the more wonderful to appreciate.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
Yeah, there's a couple of these films that I sort of watch sort of semi regularly. I always try to watch The Salad Partner at Christmas just because it feels like you have to. But the world of that movie is really interesting and it's kind of cozy because it takes place during Christmas time, even though there's, like, a huge crime going on. But it's like that thing of, like, it's taking place within the mall and people's apartments, and it's just like, you know, it's like a vibe, as the kids say. So, you know, I like to watch that semi regularly if I can. But then there's stuff like when you watch The World's Greatest Sinner, that movie is kind of awe inspiring because it is truly, like, one man's singular vision. And it may not be 100% watchable at every moment, but there are times where you're just like it's sort of the audacity of it, in a weird way, is just sort of like, part of why you're there. So, yeah, it's different tones. Some of these movies. Yeah, they maybe are hard to watch over and over and over again, but sometimes just, like, watching something, like, a little rough around the edges or something that's just very specifically like, one person's vision at all costs is fascinating.
BETH ACCOMANDO
All right, well, I want to thank you very much for talking about 50 must see films of the TCM underground quality.
MILLIE DeCHIRICO
Thanks, Beth. I'm so appreciative of you. You've always been a big champion, so I very much appreciate it. You.
BETH ACCOMANDO
That was author and former TCM programmer Millie DeChirico.
Her new book is TCM UNDERGROUND: 50 Must-See Films from the World of Classic Cult and Late-Night Cinema
I am so grateful to Millie for all the films she introduced me to and for being dedicated to an underground aesthetic that said there is room for films of all kinds. So join me tonight for Plan 9 from Outer Space and grab a copy of Millie’s book so you can always be reminded of the rebel spirit that fueled TCM Underground.
That wraps up another edition of KPBS listener supported Cinema Junkie. If you enjoy the podcast then please share it with a friend because your recommendation is the best way to build an addicted audience. You can also help by leaving a review.
Till our next film fix, I’m Beth Accomando your resident Cinema Junkie.
