OUR TOP STORY ON MIDDAY ADDITION THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER CARL VINSON RETURNED TO SAN DIEGO AFTER A 10 MONTH DEPLOYMENT. DURING THAT TIME THE U.S. NAVY SAYS THE SHIPS AIRCRAFT FLEW 2300 COMBAT MISSION AND DROPPED MORE THAN ONE HALF MILLION POUNDS OF ORDINANCE AGAINST THE INSURGENT GROUP ISIS. JUST THIS WEEK THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION ANNOUNCED THE DEPLOYMENT OF 450 AMERICAN ADVISERS TO IRAQ TO HELP WITH THE BATTLE OF INSURGENTS. ISIS HAS CHANGED THE MAP OF THE MIDDLE EAST IN A ROCK THEY HAVE SEIZED THE CITIES OF RAMADI AND MUZZLE THIS IS NOT TO MENTION THE ADVANCES THEY'VE MADE IN THE HOLLOW STATES OF LIBYA. JOINING ME TO TALK ABOUT THE POLITICAL BACKDROP OF THE MIDDLE EASTERN CRISIS THAT WE CALL ISIS ARE 1015 AND DIPAK GUPTA. DIPAK GUPTA IS PROFESSOR EMERITUS OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT SAN DIEGO STATE AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR COMING AND. GOOD TO BE HERE. 1015 IS PRESIDENT OF THE SAN DIEGO CHAPTER OF THE TRUE THE NATIONAL PROJECT. THANK YOU THANK YOU. DOES THIS MAY SURPRISE YOU OR DO YOU THINK IT WILL DO ANY GOOD. THAT'S WHAT CLEAR-CUT QUESTION. YOU KNOW THE PROBLEM, TOM, IS THAT AT THE CORE OF IT IN THIS INTERNATIONAL CONFLICT IN SYRIA AND IRAQ WE KNOW WHICH GROUP WE WISH WOULD LOSE. WE DON'T KNOW WHICH ONE WE WISH TO SUCCEED. THERE ARE SHIITES, MILITIAS ON ONE SIDE THERE ARE THE SUNNIS ON THE OTHER. IT IS AN ABSOLUTE CRISSCROSSING IDENTITY WITH VERY CONFUSING GROUND REALITIES COP THEREFORE IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO KNOW WHETHER IT WOULD SUCCEED OR NOT BUT PROBABLY THIS IS THE BEST OPTION. THAT IS AVAILABLE TO US. LET ME PUT THE QUESTION TO YOU SHAWN TEEN AS SENDING THESE ADVISERS THAT HAVE VERY LITTLE INTEREST IN FIGHTING. I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN PROVIDERS AND TRAINERS. MILITARY HAS. DIFFERENCE IS WHAT WE ARE SENDING OUT THERE THE EXTRA TROOPS THAT THE PRESIDENT ANNOUNCED SENDING OUR TRAINERS. THE MISSION OF THE TRAINER IS TO STAY ON THE BASE BEHIND THE LINE ON WHAT WE CALL A FORD OPERATING BASE AND TRAIN TROOPS, TEACH THEM HOW TO DO THEIR JOBS, TEACH THEM HOW TO ASK -- SUCCEED. AND ADVISOR GOES WITH THE FOREIGN TROOPS AND HELPS THEM. I THINK IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT THAT WE RECOGNIZE THAT JUST BECAUSE WE SAY THE BASELINE IS HERE DOES NOT MEAN SOMEBODY WILL COME THROUGH THE FENCE. OKAY BUT THESE TRAINERS, I THINK YOU CALLED THEM, DO YOU THINK THIS IS WHAT THE IRAQI ARMY NEEDS? HONESTLY I THINK THE SOLUTION IS PROBABLY THAT WE HAVE ENOUGH MILITARY FIRE PAIR OUT THERE I THINK THE SOLUTION IS POLITICAL. WE HAVE A MILITARY PLAN WE DO NOT HAVE A POLITICAL PLAN. WE NEED TO HAVE A POLITICAL PLAN LEVERAGING RELATIONSHIPS IN THE REGION TOWARD SUCCESS. WHEN YOU ARE SAYING THAT DIPAK WAS NODDING HIS HEAD . WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SAY IN RESPONSE TO THAT. I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH 1017 -- SHAWN TEEN. THE REASON WE WERE SUCCESSFUL IN THE AWAKENING IS BECAUSE WE COULD GO OUT AND ASHER THE SUNNIS THAT THEY WOULD BE PART OF THIS NEW IRAQ. DO NOT HAVE A NATIONAL IDENTITY AND THEREFORE WHEN SADDAM WAS THERE IT WAS A SUNNI MINORITY AND A SECULAR SUNNI MINORITY A VERY REPRESSES THAT WAS LORDING OVER THE VAST NUMBER OF SHIITES. NOW IN A DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM THEY HAVE TURNED THE TABLE AROUND AND THEY ARE DISCRIMINATING AND RUTHLESSLY REPRESSING THE SUNNI ASPIRATIONS. SHAWN WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SAY . I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH DIPAK. THE REAL ANSWER IS WHAT WE DID IN WORLD WAR II. EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE WHAT WE DID IN VIETNAM, KOREA, AND IRAQ AND THEN ANSWER IS A 40 APPROACH. NOT ONLY US HARD DEFENSE. THE FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE HAS FAMOUSLY SAID HE WOULD LOVE TO CUT OFF 25% OF HIS BUDGET AND GIVE IT TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT TO ACCOMPLISH THE OTHER THREE D'S DIPLOMACY DEMOCRACY AND DEVELOPMENT. THAT MEANS WHEN MY GRANDFATHER STORMED THE BEACHES OF NORMANDY THEY WENT AND KILLED A BUNCH OF NAZIS AND ROUTED THEM OUT OF YOUR IT AND SAID SOCIETY HOW CAN WE HELP YOU. HOW CAN WE UTILIZE LOCAL PEOPLE TO REBUILD YOUR SOCIETY REBUILD YOUR CHURCH'S COMMUNITY CENTERS AND GOVERNMENTS. YOU KNOW WHAT THEY DID NOT DO? THEY DID NOT SAY HEY HALLIBURTON COME ON AND YOU REBUILD. THEY HAD LOCAL POPULATION DO IT.'S ONE QUESTION I WANTED TO THE BOTH OF YOU WHICH MUST BE ON THE LOT -- ON THE MIND OF PEOPLE LISTENING. WHAT IS ISIS? WHO ARE THEY AND WHAT ARE THEIR STATED GOALS. DIPAK AND YOU WANT TO START? YES. ISIS IS REALLY AN OFFSHOOT OF -- LET ME TELL YOU. AL QAEDA WAS THERE, WE KNOW ABOUT AL QAEDA IN THE REGION CAME AL QAEDA AND ARABIAN PENINSULA. FROM THERE THEY SENT OVER IN 2011 AN EMISSARY TO START A NEW FRONT AND THEN ISIS CAME OVER FROM THEIR JOINT EFFORT. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT AL QAEDA IS ALMOST TOTALLY WEEKEND TODAY. THE AL QAEDA CENTRAL -- AL QAEDA IN THE ROOM -- IN THE ARABIAN PENINSULA GOT WIPED OUT AFTER ZAKARIA WAS KILLED NOW ON THE SIERRA AND ISIS -- THEY HAVE SHARED THE SAME PARENTS BUT THEY ARE NOT GETTING ALONG THAT WELL. BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT IRAQ FOR INSTANCE. SHAWN, IS ISIS COMPARABLE TO THE SUNNI INSURGENTS THAT THE US WAS FIGHTING WHEN WE WERE OVER THERE 10 YEARS AGO? SO ISIS LAKE DIPAK AND SAID IT CAME FROM AN AL QAEDA OFFSHOOT BUT WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO NOTICE IS THE GUY WHO FOUNDED ISIS WENT TO BIN LADEN AND BIN LADEN WAS NOT INTERESTED. HE SAID IT'S TOO CRAZY FOR ME. THE FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AL QAEDA AND ISIS IS AL QAEDA WANTS TO TERRORIZE US OVER HERE. ISIS WANTS TO TERRORIZE FOLKS OVER THERE AND IF YOU'RE NOT FOLLOWING THEIR ROLES THAN YOU ARE DEAD. THEY ARE CUTTING OFF HEADS AND ROLLING THROUGH. WHAT IS REALLY INTERESTING IS THAT BECAUSE WE WENT THROUGH WHEN WE WENT THROUGH THE DEEP ETHIC VACATION -- DEEP -- DEEP ETHIC SIGNIFICATION AND SAID IF YOU WORK FOR THE MODERN YOU'RE OUT THEY RAN A MILITARY -- THEY RAN A SOPHISTICATED AND POWERFUL MILITARY OPERATION OF A THEIR. THERE IS NO BETTER MILITARY OPERATION IN THE WORLD AND -- THAN THE US AND THAT'S WHY WE ARE HELPING A THEIR. YOU ARE LISTENING TO MIDDAY EDITION WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE POLITICAL BACKDROP OF THE SUCCESS OF ISIS AND SYRIA AND IN IRAQ. MY GUEST ARE DIPAK GUPTA HE IS A PROFESSOR EMERITUS OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT SAN DIEGO STATE AND SHAWN VANDIVER CODIRECTOR OF THE SAN DIEGO CHAPTER OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY PROJECT. DIPAK YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT SYRIA AND YOU SAID SYRIA IS A FAILED STATE. IS IRAQ A FAILED STATE? FOR THE MOST PART. IRAQ DOES NOT HAVE A STRONG GOVERNMENT OR THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT REPRESENT THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE IN THE SUNNI ENCLAVES. THEREFORE ALL IN THE KURDISH AREAS. SO IT IS A VERY WEAK GOVERNMENT. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE A VERY WEAK GOVERNMENT OR PARTICULARLY IF IT IS A FAILED STATE. WHAT IS -- WHAT DO PEOPLE WANT FROM THE GOVERNMENT? THEY WANT SECURITY COP ASIC PUBLIC GOODS. AND THEREFORE PEOPLE WHO ARE LIVING IN MUZZLE AND PERHAPS IN OTHER PARTS OF IRAQ AND IN SYRIA THESE GUYS A LARGE ARE NOT IDEOLOGUES JUST LIKE HUSSEIN'S EX-MILITARY FOLKS. THEY ARE NOT INTO IT BECAUSE OF THEIR IDEOLOGY. ISIS IS PROVIDING THEM WITH JOBS, OMISSION, AND FOR ORDINARY FOLKS A SENSE OF SECURITY AND SOME KIND OF LAW AND ORDER THAT THEY CAN TRUST. WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SHIITE AND SUNNI I KNOW THAT IT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH WHO THEY BELIEVE WAS THE FOUNDER AND CARRIER OF ISLAM BACK IN THE OLD DAYS, BUT IS THAT WHY THEY HATE EACH OTHER OR IS IT ALL POLITICS? WILL YOU CANNOT DISTINGUISH POLITICS FROM RELIGION PARTICULARLY IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD. NOW WHAT WE ARE REALLY WORRIED ABOUT IS THAT THERE IS A FULL-BLOWN CIVIL WAR RIGHT NOW BETWEEN THE SHIITES AND THE SUNNIS AIDED BY THE PROXY WAR BETWEEN SAUDI ARABIA AND THE GULF STATES. AND IRAN ON THE OTHER. THIS IS WHAT WE ARE WITNESSING. AND IRAN THEY CALLED IT A TIME OF CHAOS WHEN BROTHERS WOULD KILL BROTHERS AND IN THIS FRATRICIDE WE ARE REALLY IN -- WE ARE WITNESSING ANOTHER TIME OF INTENSE CHAOS. GRAND -- SHAWN IT SEEMS CLEAR TO ME THAT YOU BELIEVE THE US HAS A ROLE TO PLAY. WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE POLITICAL CHAOS OF THE MIDDLE EAST HOWDY RESPOND TO IT. WHO DO YOU WANT TO WIN? I WOULD SAY THE ABSOLUTELY THE US HAS A ROLE TO PLAY BUT WE HAVE TO BE VERY FULL -- CAREFUL. THE VETERANS HAVE SERVED LIKE MYSELF OFF THE COAST OF IRAQ OR INDIRECT IT IS EASY TO GET VERY ANGRY WHEN WE WATCH RAMADI FALL OR TO CREATE FALL I REMEMBER WATCHING AND I WAS IN TEARS WATCHING ALL OF THE STUFF THAT WE WORKED FOR. ALL MY FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES AND I WORKED FOR YEARS AND YEARS TO SECURE IRAQ AND HELP IT BECOME A BETTER PLACE AND WE WERE WATCHING ALL THAT WORK BE UNDONE VERY QUICKLY. WE KNEW THAT WE HAD WEAPONS THAT WERE CAPABLE OF TAKING THESE GUYS OUT SO WE WERE WONDERING WHAT WAS GOING ON. I DIGRESS. I WAS SAYING THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO TAKE A SECOND PAUSE AND REALIZE THAT WE CAN SEND 50,000 TROOPS IN THEIR AURA HUNDRED THOUSAND TROOPS OR 500,000 TROOPS OR WE COULD TAKE BACK IRAQ AND WE WOULD HOLD FOR ANOTHER FIVE YEARS UNTIL WE ARE'S TIRED OF IT BUT THE COUNTRY IS WAR WEARY TROOPS OR WAR WEARY AND WE CAN'T SOLVE THEIR PROBLEM FOR THEM. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE. THE PEOPLE IN SYRIA AND THE PEOPLE IN IRAQ HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THIS IS THEIR FIGHT AND THEY WANT TO WIN. I THINK WE WILL SEE THAT AND I THINK WE ARE SEEING THAT IN EGYPT AND JORDAN AND ALL OVER THE PLACE OVER THE MIDDLE EAST. THE REGIONAL PARTNERS ARE COMING IN AND AROUND IS HELPING WITH THAT SITE. WE WANT THEM TO WIN DO WE WANT THEM TO HOLD THE CARS? PROBABLY NOT. ALL THE REGIONAL PARTNERS ARE VERY IMPORTANT IN THIS FIGHT. SHAWN -- DIPAK GUPTA I THINK YOU'LL AGREE THAT THE PEOPLE IN THE REGION NEED TO FIGURE IT OUT. IF IT IS SHARED IDENTITIES HOW DO YOU CREATE NATIONS IN THE ARAB WORLD'S? THAT IS INDEED A VERY DIFFICULT QUESTION TO ANSWER. I DON'T HAVE A READY ANSWER. BECAUSE MANY OF THESE COUNTRIES WERE CREATED BY THE COLONIAL ROLES BY THE COLONIAL RULERS. THEY PUNCH TOGETHER GROUPS OF PEOPLE THAT THEY NEVER THOUGHT OF THEMSELVES AS A COUNTRY AND AS A NATION. SUDAN FOR EXAMPLE SOUTH SUDAN AND NORTH SUDAN. THEY NEVER THOUGHT OF THEMSELVES AS ONE NATION. NATIONBUILDING IS A PSYCHOLOGICAL PROCESS. BECAUSE ALL HUMAN GROUPINGS ARE NOT BASED ON BIOLOGY THEY ARE BASED ON IMAGINATION. WE IMAGINE OURSELVES TO BE PART OF THE NATION. IF THAT IS WHAT MOST PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY BELIEVE THEN THEY WILL BE A COUNTRY. THE REASON IN THIS COUNTRY WE FIND OUR INNER STRENGTH THROUGH THE NATIONAL IDENTITY. KENNY TRANSPLANT THAT AND COUNTRY REDDING BY HISTORICAL GRIEVANCES? I THINK THE LAST WORD FROM SEAN -- 1017 -- SHAWN WHAT WOULD YOU SAY ? I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT WE CREATE OUR OWN MINDS. WE DREW OUR OWN BORDERS. PEOPLE ALL OVER AFRICA AND THE MIDDLE EAST DID NOT DRAW THEIR OWN BORDERS. THEY WERE DRAWN BY SOMEBODY ELSE AND I THINK IT'S AN IMPORTANT DISTINCTION TO MAKE. MY GUESTS HAVE BEEN SHAWN VANDIVER AND DIPAK GUPTA. BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE CRISIS OF THE ARAB WORLD. DIPAK GUPTA IS A PROFESSOR A TASTE IN POLITICAL SCIENCE AT SAN DIEGO STATE THANK YOU FOR COMING IN. AND SHAWN VANDIVER IS PRESIDENT OF THE CHAPTER OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY PROJECT. INC. YOU. -- THANK YOU
The new U.S. military hub setting up in Iraq's western desert could be a model for more such train-and-advise operations — and with it likely more U.S. troops — designed to help Iraq defeat the Islamic State, the top-ranking American general said Thursday.
"Sure, we're looking all the time at whether there might be additional sites necessary," Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told reporters traveling with him to Naples, Italy, where he is meeting with U.S. commanders.
"It's another one of the options" short of committing U.S. ground combat forces, he said. President Barack Obama has ruled out U.S. ground combat.
Dempsey spoke the day after the Obama administration announced that as many as 450 U.S. troops will go over the next two months to al-Taqqadum, situated between the Islamic State-occupied cities of Ramadi and Fallujah in Anbar province, to advise Iraqi forces and help integrate a larger number of Sunni tribal fighters into the Iraqi campaign to retake Ramadi.
Dempsey said the mission for U.S. forces there "first and foremost" will be to assist the Iraqi military in organizing and executing its counteroffensive, while encouraging greater Sunni involvement. Integrating into the fight the Sunni tribes — who have either been sidelined by the Shiite-led central government in Baghdad or unwilling to join — is seen as a crucial to driving the Islamic State out of the Sunni-majority areas of western Iraq.
As the Iraqi campaign against the Islamic State progresses, Dempsey said, another such U.S. hub could be established along the route between Baghdad and the northern city of Mosul, which has been under Islamic State control for a year. Prospects for launching a counteroffensive in Mosul this year, however, seem dim, given the Iraqi army's recent defeat in Ramadi.
Dempsey refused to offer a timeline for Iraq launching a counteroffensive in Ramadi, but his description of the plan for al-Taqqadum indicated the big counter-attack is not imminent.
"It will take several weeks" for the U.S. to establish its base at al-Taqqadum, he said. It will include not only U.S. military advisers but also personnel to provide basic supplies and to protect the base. He said almost half of the 450 troops will be devoted to the "force protection" mission.
Asked about the reason for putting U.S. advisers closer to the fight for Ramadi, he said, "I think that this will be an enabler to what eventually will become a counterattack to reclaim Ramadi."
Wednesday's announcement left out any move to send U.S. forces closer to the front lines, either to call in airstrikes or to advise smaller battlefront units, underscoring Obama's reluctance to plunge the military deeper into war and risk the sight of more body bags coming home from Iraq.
The U.S. is insistent that the Americans will not have a combat role but said they may venture out of the base in order to help identify and recruit Sunni tribes.
"Is this a game changer? ... No. It's an extension of an existing campaign that makes the campaign more credible. The game changers are going to have to come from the Iraqi government," Dempsey told reporters traveling with him.
The expanded effort also will include expediting the delivery of U.S. equipment and arms to Iraq, including directly to troops at al-Taqaddum, under the authority of the government in Baghdad.
Obama this week lamented that the U.S. lacks a "complete strategy" for defeating the Islamic State, and officials pointed to a glaring lack of recruits among Sunnis.
The Sunni-Shiite divide has been at the heart of the Islamic State's successes in Iraq. Officials blamed the Iraqi government for last year's collapse of the military in the face of the Islamic State onslaught. Many Sunnis in the armed forces dropped their weapons and fled, unwilling to fight for the Shiite-led government.
Some local citizens in Sunni-majority areas still fear an invasion and reprisals from Iran-backed Shiite militia even more than domination by the Islamic State. And Iraqi leaders in the Shiite-led government have been slow to recruit Sunni tribesmen, fearing that the fighters, once armed, could turn against them.
New Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi has promised to address those concerns.
Obama's new plan, however, doesn't go far enough for critics who have pressed for military coordinators and advisers closer to the front lines to augment the U.S. airstrike campaign.
House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, said Wednesday that sending several hundred military advisers to Iraq "is a step in the right direction," but he criticized Obama for not having "an overarching strategy." Sen. John McCain of Arizona, the Republican chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, was harsher in his assessment: "This is incrementalism at its best or worst, depending on how you describe it."
And some Democrats were also concerned. "Absent significant reform, we can help the Iraqi forces win battles, but they will not stay won," said Rep. Adam Schiff of California, the House Intelligence Committee's top Democrat.
There now are nearly 3,100 U.S. troops in Iraq involved in training, advising, security and other support. In addition to bombing missions, the U.S. is conducting aerial reconnaissance and intelligence-gathering missions against Islamic State forces, while counting on Iraqi troops to do the fighting on the ground.
