Obama To Extend College Aid Grants To Some Prison Inmates

TOP STORY ON MIDDAY EDITION, SUPPORTERS SAY FEDERAL FUNDING FOR COLLEGE EDUCATION IN PRISON REDUCES THE CHANCE OF PRISONERS REOFFENDING. OPPONENTS SAY IT IS AN INSULT TO VICTIMS AND TAXPAYERS. THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION ANNOUNCED LAST WEEK IT IS STARTING A TEST PROGRAM OF ALLOWING PRISONERS TO APPLY FOR PELL GRANTS. A BAN ON PELL GRANTS FOR INMATES FROM -- REMAINS IN EFFECT BUT THIS PROGRAM IS CHARACTERIZED AS RESEARCH. LAST WEEK, EDUCATION SECRETARY ARNE DUNCAN EXPLAINED WHY GIVEN PELL GRANTS TO PRISONERS WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA. WE HAVE EVERY SINGLE YEAR 700,000 PEOPLE COMING OUT OF PRISON, BACK INTO OUR STREETS AND BACK INTO OUR COMMUNITIES. I WOULD MUCH PREFER TO HAVE THE 700,000 COMING OUT OF PRISON WITH SOME COLLEGE CREDITS IN THEIR BACK POCKET WITH A COLLEGE DEGREE, BEING ABLE TO BE PRODUCTIVE CITIZENS AND COME WORK AND CONTRIBUTE TO SOCIETY RATHER THAN HAVING TO GO BACK TO WHAT THEY WERE DOING BEFORE. EARLIER TODAY, I SPOKE WITH KATHY BALAKIAN AND SUPERVISOR OF CORRECTIONAL EDUCATION PROGRAMS AT DONOVAN STATE PRISON. HERE IS THAT INTERVIEW. KATHY, FROM YOUR UNDERSTANDING, WOULD PRISONERS AT DONOVAN BE ELIGIBLE FOR THE PROGRAM? WELL, SINCE THE PROGRAM HAS NOT BEEN IMPLEMENTED YET, IT IS GOING TO BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHICH ONES WILL BE ELIGIBLE IF THE PILOT PROGRAM AT THE MARYLAND CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTE IS SUCCESSFUL. SO IT WOULD BE -- CASE-BY-CASE BASIS. BASED ON APPLICATION PROCESS. ARE THERE INMATES AT DONOVAN ENROLLED IN COLLEGE CLASSES NOW? THERE CURRENTLY ARE INMATES IN COLLEGE CLASSES, YES. HOW DOES THAT WORK? WELL, INMATES WHO HAVE A GED OR HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA ARE ELIGIBLE TO APPLY FOR COLLEGE AND THE COLLEGE WE PRIMARILY WORK WITH IS COASTLINE COMMUNITY COLLEGE, SO SUBMIT AN APPLICATION, WORKING WITH OUR TEACHERS AND THEY SIGN-UP FOR ANYWHERE FROM ONE-MAYBE FOR CLASSES PER SEMESTER. AND THIS YEAR, FOR EXAMPLE, WE HAVE TWO INMATES THAT WILL EARN THEIR AA. WILL HAVE A GRADUATION CEREMONY SEPTEMBER TO HONOR THEM. BUT IT IS OPEN TO ALL INMATES WITH A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA OR GED. AND WHO PAYS FOR THAT? ACTUALLY, THE -- THERE'S A FEE WAIVER THAT MOST INMATES COMPLETE, AND APPLICATION FOR FROM COASTLINE COMMITTEE COLLEGE AND SO THEIR REGISTRATION FEES ARE WAIVED. ACTUALLY, THE BOOKS -- WE HAVE SOME OF THE BOOKS -- ALL BOOKS ON DVDS AND WE AIR THEM OVER THE INMATE TELEVISION CHANNEL AND THERE ARE SOME INMATES THAT HAVE PURCHASED BOOKS AND SOME INMATES HAVE DONATED BOOKS TO US AND THEN WE ALSO HAVE PURCHASED BOOKS WITH OUR FUNDS HERE. OKAY. WHAT OTHER TYPES OF EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES ARE OFFERED AT DONOVAN OUTSIDE OF THE COLLEGE CLASSES YOU WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT? WE OFFERS FOUR LEVELS OF ADULT BASIC EDUCATION INCLUDING ESL AND THEN WE OFFER A GED PROGRAM AND THE COLLEGE AS I MENTIONED, WE OFFER CAREER TECHNICAL EDUCATION PROGRAMS, MACHINE SHOP, HVAC, CARPENTRY, COMPUTER LITERACY ELECTRONICS, WELDING WE ALSO HAVE A RECREATION PROGRAM AND WE ALSO OVERSEE THE RECREATION AND LAW LIBRARY'S. KATHY, DO YOU SEE A DIFFERENCE IN THE INMATES WHO ARE PARTICIPATING IN EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS LIKE THE COLLEGE CLASSES THAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT? I DO. I DO SEE A DIFFERENCE. BECAUSE WE KNOW THE BENEFITS OF EDUCATION. WE KNOW THAT ACCESS TO DEFEND WAYS OF THINKING THROUGH TAKING OUR CLASSES WILL PROVIDE THEM WITH SOME POSITIVE ALTERNATIVES TO DO DIFFERENT THINGS FROM WHAT THEY'VE DONE IN THE PAST . SO WE KNOW ONCE THEIR THINKING CHANGES, THEIR BEHAVIOR CHANGES AND THEY REALIZE IT'LL HAVE TO GO BACK TO DOING WHAT THEY DID . SO I SEE A CHANGE, SEE A LOT OF INTEREST IN WORKING FOR OUR EDUCATION DEPARTMENT TEACHERS AND LIBRARIANS . SO I DO SEE A DIFFERENCE. SO WHAT'S THE PARTICIPATION RATE LIKE? AND WHAT TYPES OF OUTCOMES HAVE YOU SEEN? USE A COUPLE OF INMATES ARE OWING TO GET AN ASSOCIATES DEGREE. THIS TIME. WHAT OTHER OUTCOMES HAVE YOU SEEN? THIS YEAR, WE WILL HAVE 44 STUDENTS WHO EARNED A GED. IT IS LOWER THAN PREVIOUS YEARS, BUT ONE OF THE REASONS IS WE IMPLEMENTED THE COMPUTER DAYS -- COMPUTER-BASED GED TASTE FOR PLACING THE PAPER AND PENCIL TESTS AND THIS IS A TEST REQUIRES A LOT OF DIFFERENT SKILLS, TYPING SKILLS, KNOWLEDGE OF HOW TO PERFORM BASIC COMPUTER FUNCTIONS AND IN ADDITION TO DEMONSTRATING HIGHER ORDER OF THINKING SKILLS . SO WORSE BEFORE THEY MAY HAVE HAD MULTIPLE CHOICE TYPE QUESTIONS AND NOW THEY HAVE TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE FOR RESPONSE OR EXPLAIN THE PROCESS THEY USED TO SOLVE THE CIVIC PROBLEMS. WE ALSO HAD 105 INMATES WHO HAVE EARNED SOME CERTIFICATION IN THE CAREER TECHNICAL EDUCATION PROGRAM. SO THEY WILL HAVE A SKILL WHEN RELEASED, A SKILL THEY CAN WORK IN HEATING VENTILATION AND AIR-CONDITIONING OR CARPENTRY OR COMPUTERS OR WELDING. SO WE HAVE HIGH NUMBERS IN OUR CTE PROGRAM'S. KATHY, A FEW YEARS AGO, A LOT OF THE REALLY REHABILITATION PROGRAMS IN CALIFORNIA PRISONS WERE CUT BACK RATHER DRASTICALLY BECAUSE OF BUDGET CUTS. DO SEE SOME OF THOSE PROGRAM SLOWLY COMING BACK? YES. SO THAT WAS IN 2010. SINCE THAT TIME, AFTER THE CUTS, WE HAVE -- PROGRAMS HAVE EXPANDED TO INCLUDE THE COMPUTER LITERACY AND THE HVAC PROGRAM AND CARPENTRY. SO WE SEE HIGH NUMBERS OF STUDENTS IN THOSE CLASSES AND WITH OUR INFILL PROJECT WITH THE NEW HOUSING AND A NEW SMALL PRISON BEING BUILT HERE, WE WILL INCREASE THE PROGRAMS AND THAT INFILL PROJECT. AND JUST TO GO BACK TO MY FIRST QUESTION, DO YOU HAVE ANY KIND IT -- KIND OF TIMELINE WHEN YOU THINK THESE NEW PELL PILOT PROGRAMS MIGHT BE ROLLED OUT AT DONOVAN? WELL, WHAT I DO KNOW IS THAT EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES ARE TO APPLY TO PARTICIPATE IN THE PILOT PROGRAM. AND I THINK THE END OF SEPTEMBER IS THE DEADLINE FOR THEM TO DO THAT. AND THAT WOULD BE FOR THE -- FOR THE 2015-2016 SCHOOL YEAR. SO I'M NOT SURE HOW THAT WOULD IMPACT US LOCALLY. KATHY -- KATHY BALAKIAN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. THANK YOU. AFTER OUR INTERVIEW SHE SAID SHE MISSPOKE AND SAID SHE MET THE 2016-2017 SCHOOL YEAR. THAT IS WHEN THE PELL GRANTS MIGHT BE ROLLED OUT JOINING ME NOW IS MICHAEL BRAUN, CRIMINAL JUSTICE PROFESSOR AT SAN DIEGO STATE UNIVERSITY. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM. THANK YOU. THE SECOND CHANCE PELL PILOT PROGRAM WOULD APPLY TO PRISONERS LIKELY TO BE RELEASED WITHIN FIVE YEARS DESCRIBED AS A RESEARCH PROGRAM BUT 2025 YEARS AGO, BELGRADE'S USED TO BE AVAILABLE TO MOST PRISONERS. WHY IS THAT NO LONGER THE CASE? THE BAN ON PELL GRANTS CAME INTO EFFECT AFTER A COMPREHENSIVE AND MASSIVE CRIME BILL THAT WAS PASSED INTO LAW IN 1994 BY PRESIDENT. BILL CLINTON CALLED THE VIOLENT CRIME FOR -- CONTROL AND ENFORCEMENT ACT AND THAT WAS ABOUT 400 PAGES AND THAT BROUGHT IN SWEEPING CHANGES TO POLICY THAT INCLUDED MANDATORY MINIMUM SENTENCING, ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN, DEATH PENALTY REFORM, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE REFORM, GANG CRIMES, ADULT SEX OFFENDER CRIMES, SEX OFFENDER REGISTRATION AND IN THAT PACKAGE WAS THIS BAN ON PROVIDING PELL GRANTS TO PRISONERS. GENERALLY, DO MOST PRISONS NOW OFFER SOME TYPE OF POST SECRETARY -- POST SECONDARY, THAT IS, EDUCATION PROGRAMS? TO MY KNOWLEDGE, THEY DO NOT. THE ONLY ONES ARE SLIM AND FEW AND FAR BETWEEN -- BETWEEN AND THE ONES THAT ARE OFFERED ARE OFFERED THROUGH PRIVATE COALITIONS WITH THE UNIVERSITY SEMI BE WORKING WITH THEM. I SEE. WE HEARD IN DONOVAN THAT IS ONLY THIS ONE COMMUNITY COLLEGE THAT IS OFFERING COLLEGE CLASSES APPARENTLY JEANETTE STATE PRISON. WHAT THIS RESEARCH SAY, MICHAEL, ABOUT THE IMPACT OF PRISONERS GETTING POST SECONDARY EDUCATION WHILE THEY ARE SERVING TIME? THE RESEARCH ON THIS IS ACTUALLY PRETTY CLEAR. THE BENEFITS OF HAVING A POST SECONDARY EDUCATION WHILE PRISONERS ARE INCARCERATED OVER A SPAN OF YEARS A NUMBER OF RESEARCHERS HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION LOOKING AT THE DATA THAT THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THEY SPENT ON THE FRONT END OF EDUCATING PRISONERS HAS PAID BACK MULTIPLE TIMES OVER. MY CORPORATION -- RAND CORPORATION CAME OUT WITH A CONCLUSION THAT FOR EVERY DOLLAR WE SPEND AT THE FRONT AND WE GET FIVE DOLLARS RETURN FOR A -- IN TERMS OF REDUCING AND CORPORATE -- INCARCERATION AND REDUCTIONS IN CRIME AND GETTING PEOPLE OUT OF PRISON AND BACK INTO THE WORKFORCE. THAT IS ONE AND THEN, TOO, THERE IS ALSO A SUBSTANTIAL DECREASE IN THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE WHO COME BACK TO PRISON IN THE BEGINNING OF THE SHOW, WE HEARD WE RELEASE ABOUT 700,000 PRISONERS PER YEAR AND THE RAND CORPORATION'S STUDY, WHAT THEY REFERENCED WAS THAT AFTER PRISONERS HAVE NO SECONDARY EDUCATION, THEIR RECIDIVISM RATE OF CRIMES THEY DO REDUCES BY ABOUT 50%. ALMOST 50%. 43% AND SO IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT REDUCTION OF 300,000 PRISONERS NOT COMING BACK INTO PRISON AND YOU ALSO HEARD AT DONOVAN THE DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT THE DEMEANOR IS A PEOPLE WHILE INCARCERATED AND THAT SEEMS TO BE WORN OUT BY MY EXPERIENCES AND PEOPLE I'VE TALKED TO BOTH IN THE PROGRAMS AND ADMINISTRATING PROGRAMS AND THAT GIVES PRISONERS SOMETHING TO DO, GIVING THEM DIFFERENT WAYS TO THINK AND OPTIONS OR THINK ABOUT DIFFERENT OPTIONS THEY MAY HAVE ONCE THEY GET OUT. SO THERE'S ALL KINDS OF BENEFITS. AND MICHAEL, YOU HAVE A UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE ON THIS ISSUE BECAUSE ACCESS TO COLLEGE CLASSES IN PRISON ACTUALLY PLAYED A PIVOTAL ROLE IN YOUR LIFE. TELL US ABOUT THAT. THAT'S TRUE. I'M DOUBLE VICE ON THIS ISSUE, BOTH AN EDUCATOR AND A REAL FORMER PRISONER . SO BACK IN -- I DID BENEFIT FROM PELL GRANTS, HOWEVER DID I WAS INCARCERATED IN THE LATE 90s ON THE TAIL END OF WHAT WE UNDERSTAND IS A NON-SLAUGHTER OF THE WAR ON DRUGS AND I WAS INCARCERATED FOR A NUMBER OF DRUG -- WERE RELATIVELY MINOR DRUG OFFENSES VENGEANCE TO FOUR YEARS AND WHILE I WAS INCARCERATED, MY MOTHER'S RATE TOGETHER WHAT MONEY SHE COULD AND SHE OFFERED TO PAY FOR ONE COMMITTEE COLLEGE CLASS PER SEMESTER, 100 AND SOMETHING DOLLARS I TOOK HER UP ON THE OFFER. IT WAS A LONG PROCESS BECAUSE THE PRISON WASN'T MOTIVATED TO GRANT ME ACCESS TO EDUCATION FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS. AND I THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO TAKE SOME PSYCHOLOGY CLASSES AND ASKING AND WAITING FOR THE VIDEOS -- THIS WILL DATE ME. I WAS WAITING FOR THE VHS VIDEOTAPES TO COME IN AND THEY KEPT TELLING ME THEY WERE FOR MINIMUM CAMP AND SO THE EDUCATION ROOM WAS KIND OF A LITTLE CLOSET WHERE YOU HAD A BROOM CLOSET -- DIFFERENT THINGS LIKE A FOOTBALL, SOCCER BALL SO I WENT TO THE BROOM CLOSET AND THERE WAS AN OFFICER YOU OPEN IT UP AND I SAY ONE OF THOSE VIDEOS IN THE CORNER. AND HE SAID SOCIOLOGY. I SAID GIVE ME THOSE. I WILL TAKE WHATEVER I CAN GET PICS I TOOK THEM BACK TO THE EDUCATION ROOM, PLUG THEM IN, STARTED WATCHING AND INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, IT WAS THE FIRST LESSON WAS ABOUT JUVENILE DELINQUENCY. AND SO WE STARTED LEARNING ABOUT LABELING THEORY AND I WAS SITTING READING THROUGH THE BOOK, THE CHAPTER AND THOUGHT, WOW, THIS IS MY LIFE. THIS IS -- I'M READING A DESCRIPTION ABOUT THE PEOPLE I HAD GROWN UP WITH AN THINGS I WOULD RUN INTO AN IT HAD A TREMENDOUS IMPACT ON ME. FOR ONE, I WANTED TO BE A SOCIALIZES NOT A PSYCHOLOGIST. AND I NEVER BEFORE CONSIDERED GOING TO COLLEGE AND THAT WAS ONE THING BUT ALSO WALKING AROUND INSIDE THE PRISON, I STARTED TO FORM A NEW IDENTITY ABOUT MYSELF RATHER THAN SOMEBODY WHO IS A CONVICTED PRISON EXCLUDED FROM SOCIETY. I STARTED TO SEE MYSELF AS A COLLEGE TO DO. AND THAT HAD A HUGE IMPACT ON THE WAY THAT I CARRIED MYSELF WHILE INCARCERATED. CRITICS HAVE ALLOWING VISITORS TO PELL GRANTS IT SAYS IT AWARDS PEOPLE WHO BREAK THE LAW AND FEAR EXPENSE OF THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER. MANY WANT TO SEE LIBRARIES -- BREAKERS PUNTERS ARE NOT EDUCATED IN PRISON. WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT ARGUMENT? I UNDERSTAND THE SENTIMENT BEHIND THAT AND THE ISSUE IS THAT -- THE PROBLEM IS THAT WE HAVE TO PAY FOR THAT. EVERYBODY HAS TO PAY FOR THAT. NOTHING GOOD HAPPENS INSIDE OF PRISON . SO THERE IS A TERMINUS AMOUNT OF TRAUMA THAT OCCURS TO THE PERSON INCARCERATED. WE'RE FINDING OUT THE TRAUMA THAT OCCURRED TO THE GUARDS THAT WATCH THEM AND THE TRAUMA THAT THE COMMUNITY EXPENSES WHEN A CRIME OCCURS AND WHEN THE PRISONER IS REMOVED FROM THE COMMUNITY AND WHEN THEY COME BACK, IF THEY CANNOT FIND GAINFUL EMPLOYMENT AND THEY CANNOT -- AND THEY DON'T SEE ANY GOOD OPTIONS, THE PROPENSITY TO COMMIT ANOTHER CRIME INCREASES AND THAT EXPOSES THE COMMUNITIES TO MORE DANGER AND VIOLENCE. I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY SOMEONE WOULD SAY, HOW CAN WE PAY FOR SOMETHING HERE WHEN LAW ABIDING CITIZENS ARE NOT GETTING THESE KINDS OF BENEFITS. THE REALITY IS THAT ALMOST EVERYBODY WE SENT TO PRISON GOES HOME. SOMEWHERE AROUND 97% OF THE PEOPLE GO INSIDE COME BACK. SO WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT. TAXPAYERS, COMMUNITIES HAVE TO DO WITH THAT AND SO NOW WE ARE AT A POINT WHERE WE HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH THE FACT THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE EXPERIENCING HUGE AMOUNTS OF DIFFERENT KINDS OF FAILURES OF SOCIAL SYSTEMS IN THEIR LIFE AND HOW THEY GOT TO PRISON IN THE FIRST PLACE, IF THOSE THINGS ARE NOT ADDRESSED, THEN WE ARE GOING TO KEEP REPEATING THE CYCLE. SOMEBODY WILL COME OUT AND DO SOMETHING WORSE AND GO BACK IN. THEY WILL LEARN SOMETHING, REGARDLESS. WHILE INSIDE A PRISON. EVEN SENATOR. PELL HIMSELF THE ROW GRAHAM IS NAMED AFTER HE ARGUED THAT THE 1994 WHEN HE ARGUED AGAINST THIS PORTION OF IT, HE SAID PRISONS ARE PLACES -- PLACES A CRIME AND THEY TEACH PEOPLE HOW TO DO GREATER AND WORSE CRIMES AND THAT'S WHAT THE DATA TELLS US SO THEY LEARN SOMETHING ANYWAY, MIGHT AS WELL HAVE THEM LEARN SOMETHING POSITIVE YES I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR COMING TO SPEAK WITH US. I'VE BEEN SPEAKING WITH MICHAEL BRAUN, CRIMINAL JUSTICE PROFESSOR -- PROFESSOR AT SENEGAL STATE UNIVERSITY. BECKY SO MUCH. THANK YOU. -- SAN DIEGO STATE UNIVERSITY. THANK YOU SO MUCH.