Future Of Carlsbad Power Plant Remains In Limbo

THIS IS KPBS MIDDAY EDITION. I MAUREEN CAVANAUGH. A VOTE COULD COME AS EARLY AS NEXT WEEK ON THE CONSTRUCTION OF A NEW NATURAL GAS PLANT IN CARLSBAD. SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC WANTS TO BUILD THE NEW PLANT JUST AS THE OLD ENCINA POWER STATION IN CARLSBAD IS SAID TO BE TORN DOWN. THE ENERGY COMPANY SAYS THE PLANT IS NEEDED SINCE SAN DIEGO IS NO LONGER GETTING POWER FROM SENTINEL FOR A. THE DEFUNCT NUCLEAR PLANT USED TO SUPPLY ABOUT 20% OF THE COUNTY'S POWER. BUT SOME ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS ARE NOT HAPPY ABOUT THE PROPOSAL. WITH A NEW GAS POWERPLANT IS A STEP BACKWARD IN PLANNING CALIFORNIA'S ENERGY FUTURE. JOINING ME IS ALLISON ST. JOHN, KPBS NORTH COUNTY BUREAU CHIEF COVERING THE STORY FOR US. WELCOME. LIKE TO BE HERE. BUILD POWERS IS WITH PROTECT OUR COMMUNITIES FOUNDATION, A GROUP WHICH OPPOSES THE NEW CARLSBAD POWERPLANT. WELCOME. THANK YOU. WE CONTACTED SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC TO JOIN US IN THE CONVERSATION BUT THE COMPANY DECLINED. ALLISON, WHERE EXACTLY WOULD THIS NEW POWERPLANT BE CONSTRUCTED ? IF YOU EVER DRIVE INTO -- INTERSTATE 5, YOU ARE NOTICING THE POWER'S NOTE STACK ON THE LEFT AS YOU DRIVE TO CARLSBAD, THAT IS THE ENCINO POWERPLANT. THAT POWERPLANT IS A COOLING PLANT, A PLANT THAT WILL HAVE TO GO OFF-LINE ACCORDING TO STATE LAW IN 2017 BECAUSE OF THE WAY IT USES OCEAN WATER AS A COOLANT. SO THAT IS HOW YOU WOULD RECOGNIZE IT BY THE BIG TOWER. THAT TOWER WOULD UNDER THE CURRENT AGREEMENT REACHED BY SDG&E AND THE CITY OF CALLS BACK AND THE COMPANY TO BUILD A NEW PLANT THEM OF THAT POWER -- TOWER WOULD COME BY -- DOWN TO BE REPLACED BY THIS NEW LOWER PROFILE GAS POWERPLANT. AND WHO WOULD RUN THE PLANT ? NRG IS THE UPPITY THAT WOULD RUN IT CONTRACTING WITH SDG&E TO SELL IT TO PEOPLE IN THE REGION. THAT IS THE KEY ISSUE BECAUSE THERE IS NO POINT IN BUILDING IT UNLESS THE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION DECIDES THIS IS THE BEST WAY TO PROVIDE POWER TO US HERE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA. AND HOW MUCH ENERGY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? HOW WOULD -- MUCH WOULD IT PROVIDE TO THE REGION ? CURRENTLY, IT'S ABOUT 600 MW, WHICH AS YOU MENTIONED THE NUCLEAR POWER PLANT WAS 2200. IT IS ONE OF A SERIES OF PEAK PLANTS THAT SEND DCOE GAS & ELECTRIC TO PROVIDE FLEXIBLE ENERGY THROUGHOUT THE REGION BECAUSE YOU CAN TURN THEM ON WHEN DEMAND IS HIGH AND TURN THEM OFF AGAIN WHEN DEMAND IS LOW. THIS IS BEING CALLED BY SOME A NEW GENERATION GAS POWERPLANT. ALLISON, HOW WOULD THIS NEW ONE BE DIFFERENT FROM THE OLD ENCINO PLANT ? THE MAIN WAY THAT IS DIFFERENT IS THAT IT NOW COMPLIES WITH STATE LAW AND HOW IT COOLS. IT'S OPERATIONS AND SO IT NO LONGER IS AFFECTING THE MARINE ENVIRONMENT. IT IS NO LOCKING -- NO LONGER AFFECTING THE MARINE ENVIRONMENT IS THAT THE ONLY DIFFERENCE ? THAT'S THE ONLY DIFFERENCE I'M AWARE OF. SO SDG&E SAYS IT NEEDS THIS NEW PLANT IN CARLSBAD PLUS THE OTHER PEAK OR PLANS I BELIEVE THERE WAS ONE IN OLD-TIME MISSA. AND IT IS CONNECTED TO THE DEMISE OF SIN AND OVER ? WELL THIS ONE -- -- DEMISE OF SANTA KNOW FREE ? BACK THEN IN 2011 BEFORE San Onofre GOT PUT OF LINE BECAUSE OF ITS SMALL RADIATION THE COMMISSIONERS WERE TALKING ABOUT, WELL, IF WE EVER LOSE San Onofre WE WILL NEED MORE SOURCES OF ENERGY. SO THIS IS PART OF THE MIX ACCORDING TO SOME. I THINK THE THING THAT MAKES THIS SO INTERESTING IS LIKE WATER, ENERGY IS SO FLUID AND THERE SO MANY WAYS TO GET IT THAT IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU CALCULATED. SOME PEOPLE CALCULATE THAT YOU REALLY NEED THESE PEAK OR PLANS IN ORDER TO KEEP ENERGY SUPPLY RELIABLE. OTHER PEOPLE BELIEVE WE CAN DO FINE BY REDUCING OUR ENERGY USE AND BY FIGHTING -- FINDING GREEN SUSTAINABLE SOURCES OF ENERGY. THAT IS THE QUEUE TO BRING IN BILL POWERS WITH THE PROTECT OUR COMMUNITIES FOUNDATION. AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS, BILL, THAT ARE OPPOSED TO THE NEW NATURAL GAS PLANT PROJECT. WHY IS THAT ? THERE ARE A FEW REASONS. ONE IS THAT WE HAVE HAD VERY LITTLE GROWTH IN DEMAND IN THE SAN DIEGO AREA OVER THE LAST DECADE AND THESE PROJECTIONS ARE FOR WILLIS OF THE FUTURE PREDICTING NEED IN 2022. AND SAYING THAT AT THAT POINT UNDER WORST-CASE CONDITIONS, WE COULD NEED SOME MORE ENERGY. I WAS AN EXPERT WITNESS IN THE PROCEEDINGS AND THAT IS HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL, THAT CONCLUSION COME AND DEBATABLE. THE OTHER ISSUE IS THE STATE FOR DECADE HAS HAD A MANDATE TO MEET NEW NEED WITH CLEAN ENERGY. ROOFTOP SOLAR, ENERGY STORAGE, THIS IS NOT AROUND THAT MANDATE. WHAT IS CALIFORNIA LAW THAT WE WILL MEET THOSE NEEDS WITH CLEAN ENERGY. WON'T HOWEVER THIS NEW PLANT ACTUALLY EMIT LESS POLLUTION THAN THE CURRENT CARLSBAD ENCINO PLANT ? THE OMISSIONS WILL BE -- IT IS UNCERTAIN THE CURRENT PLANT OPERATES RARELY SO IT IS OMISSIONS ON A UNIT BASIS OR A BIT MORE BUT THIS PLANT COULD OPERATE MORE THAN THE EXISTING PLANT OPERATES THEREFORE THE OMISSIONS REALLY DEPEND ON HOW MUCH OF OPERATES. SO YOU JUST MENTIONED IN YOUR LAST ANSWER, SEVERAL THINGS THAT THE STATE LAW WANTS ENERGY COMPANIES TO EXPLORE. RENEWABLE SOURCES OF ENERGY. ALTERNATIVE SOURCES OF ENERGY. GO THROUGH SOME OF THEM FOR US AND ARE THEY TRULY BEING EXPLORED ? THE SHORT ANSWER IS, NOT NEARLY AS MUCH AS THEY SHOULD BE. STATE LAWS UNAMBIGUOUS. WE WILL MEET ALL UNMET NEED FIRST WITH ENERGY EFFICIENCY. IF YOU CANNOT DO WITH ENERGY EFFICIENCY, YOU WILL LOOK FOR OTHER CLEAN ALTERNATIVES, ROOFTOP SOLAR PREFERABLY, AN ENERGY STORAGE. THEY ARE FULLY AVAILABLE, BUT IN THE TRENCHES. I HAVE TO STEP BACK FOR A SECOND. RIGHT NOW WITH A MAJOR CONTROVERSY GOING ON AT THE REGULATORY AGENCY THAT APPROVES THESE CONTRACTS, CALIFORNIA PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION. THE ISSUE THERE IS AN OVER THE COZY RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE REGULATED AND THE COMMISSION. AND WHERE YOU SEE IT ON THE GROUND IS IN PROJECTS LIKE CARLSBAD OR PIO PICO WHERE IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS AND WHAT THE REAL NEED IS AND WHERE WE MEET THE NEED WITH IN TERMS OF CLEAN ENERGY, WE WOULD NOT BE HAVING A DISCUSSION ABOUT BUILDING YOUR PICO OR CALLS THAT. BUT BECAUSE -- CARLSBAD BUT BECAUSE OF THIS RELATIONSHIP, THERE IS RELATIVELY LITTLE REGULATION AND THE FAX IN PARENTHESES ARE ADAPTED TO MAKE THESE PROJECTS LOOK NEEDED WHEN THEY ARE NOT. I WANT TO ASK YOU MORE ABOUT THAT BUT FIRST, ALLISON, THE PUBLIC HAD A CHANCE TO SPEAK OUT ABOUT THE PLANNED BEFORE THE COMMISSION THIS WEEK. TELL US WHAT HAPPENED THERE ? WELL, YESTERDAY, THERE WAS A HEARING OF THE ENERGY COMMISSION AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THE ENERGY COMMISSION IS LOOKING TO SEE IS HIS PLANS GOING TO BE A GOOD NEIGHBOR. DOING AN ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STUDY. THE MEETING NEXT WEEK WITH THE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION THE BILL BASH THAT BILL IS REFERRING TO THAT HAS TO DO WITH HOW -- WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO GENERATE ENERGY FOR THE REPAIR. WHAT ARE CALIFORNIA RATEPAYERS PAYING FOR AND THIS IS THE BEST WAY TO DO IT. SO THIS HEARING, THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE LOCAL RESIDENTS OF CARLSBAD WHO WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THE FACT THAT EVEN THOUGH THE SMOKESTACK WOULD BE KNOCKED DOWN TO THE AGREEMENT, BUT ONCE I 5 IS WIDENED, IT WILL ACTUALLY LOOK ALMOST LIKE LIKE THE PHOTOSHOP PHOTOGRAPH THEY PRODUCED AT THE HEARING SHOWED SORT OF A DESERT OF FREEWAY WITH NO TREES, THE TREES WERE GONE AND INSTEAD THERE WAS FORCED A TRANSMISSION LINES. THE COMPANY THAT IS PUTTING IT UP SAYS THIS IS NOT ACCURATE. WE CAN STILL PLANT MORE TREES AND IT COULD BE MADE TO STILL LOOK BETTER. AT THE LOCAL LEVEL, THERE ARE CONCERNS ABOUT THE APPEARANCE OF IT AND OBVIOUSLY, THIS IS ONE OF THE FEW PLACES ON THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA COASTLINE BUT WE HAVE AN INDUSTRIAL POWERPLANT. THAT WAS IN CHULA VISTA GOT GOT KNOCKED OUT THERE CALLS THAT -- CARLSBAD WOULD LOVE TO SEE SOMETHING TURNED CLOSELY RELATED. THERE ARE LOCAL CONCERNS. AND THERE'S BIGGER CONCERNS FOR US AS CALIFORNIANS. I THINK THIS IS WHERE IT RELATES TO YOUR PREVIOUS SEGMENT ABOUT WATER. SINCE THE PLANT WAS INITIALLY CONSIDERED, CLIMATE CHANGE HAS GOTTEN SO MUCH WORSE AND THE NEED FOR THE COMPANIES, UTILITY COMPANIES TO FIND CLEANER SOURCES OF ENERGY HAS BECOME SO MUCH MORE OBVIOUS. AND THAT IS THE ISSUE THAT I THINK IS GOING TO BE CROPPING UP NEXT WEEK AT THE CALIFORNIA PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION. YOU HAVE MADE, BILL, AN INTERESTING CONNECTION BETWEEN THE PROBLEMS THAT THE PUC HAS BEEN HAVING WITH THESE REVELATIONS OR THESE ALLEGATIONS. REGARDING COLLUSION BETWEEN THE FORMER HEAD OF THE PUC AND ENERGY COMPANIES. AND A POSSIBLE VOTE ON THIS NEW CARLSBAD POWERPLANT. YOU HAVE A FEELING THAT PERHAPS BECAUSE THEY ARE IN THE SPOTLIGHT NOW, THEY MAY VOTE AGAINST A ? I THINK SO. I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS WE GET OUR PRELIMINARY DECISION WAS NEGATIVE OR RECOMMENDING DENIAL IN A VERY LIGHT WAY IS TO TAKE THE SPOTLIGHT OVER -- OFF ALL OF THIS CONTROVERSY THEY ARE EMBROILED IN CURRENTLY. WHAT IS HAPPENING, THOUGH, WITH CARLSBAD IS SO FAR, ALMOST EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED WITH PIO PICO. AND WHAT HAPPENED IN PIO PICO WAS COMMISSION VOTED FOR DENIAL WITHOUT PREJUDICE WITHIN A MATTER OF MONTHS, SDG&E REAPPLIED INTO THE VANTAGE OF THE LANGUAGE AND WHAT -- IN THE ORIGINAL DECISION TO FAST-TRACK APPROVAL AND PIO PICO'S UNDER CONSTRUCTION. SO ALMOST WITHOUT SKIPPING A BEAT IT WOULD APPEAR TO BE A VICTORY FOR THE THOSE LOOKING FOR CLEANER SOLUTIONS TURNING TO THE DEFEAT. IN THIS CASE, WHAT THE DECISION SAID IS WE WANT YOU TO THAT THESE CLEAN ALTERNATIVES BUT IF YOU COME BACK AND TELL US YOU HAVE LOOKED AT THEM AND THEY ARE NOT GOING TO DO THE JOB, THEN YOU'RE GOOD TO GO WITH THAT PLANT. AND THAT IS NOT -- THAT CO COMMISSION. THAT IS A SLIGHT BUMP IN THE ROAD BEFORE YOU GET WHAT WAS ALMOST A PREDETERMINED TO BEGIN WITH. ALLISON, IF THIS PLANT -- NEW PLANT AND CARLSBAD IS APPROVED, HOW MUCH WITH THE PROJECT LAWS AND WHO WILL PAY FOR ? WELL, OF COURSE IT IS ALL RATEPAYERS THAT WILL PAY FOR IT. IT WILL BE IN THE MILLIONS. IT IS EXPENSIVE, BUT WHEN YOU ARE COMPARING COST POSSIBLE SUSTAINABLE OPTIONS MIGHT BE COMPARABLE. RIGHT NOW WHAT IS INTERESTING IS THAT THE ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE AT THE PUC ISSUED A PROPOSED DECISION IN MARCH SAYING THAT ACTUALLY SDG&E NEEDS TO LOOK AT ALTERNATIVES, NOT JUST THE COST BUT ALSO FOR SUSTAINABILITY AND CLEANNESS BEFORE GOING AHEAD WITH THIS CONTRACT. AND I THINK THAT THAT IS WHAT IS SO INTERESTING COMPARED TO WHAT BILL IS SAYING, THAT AN ELEMENT OF CPUC ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE HAS CHANGED THEIR APPROACH AND SUGGESTED THAT SDG&E NEEDS TO CONSIDER SOME OF THESE OTHER BIDS. APPARENTLY, THIS JUDGE HAS SEEN THE RANGE OF RESPONSES THAT ARE BEING GIVEN TO THE COMPANY IN RESPONSE TO THEIR RFPS. IN OTHER WORDS, SHE HAS SEEN HOW MUCH THE ALTERNATIVE HAVE TO OFFER AND SEEMS TO THINK THAT, YES, THERE MIGHT BE SOME BETTER OPTIONS THERE. THESE ARE NOT MADE PUBLIC SO WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. AND THAT THEY NEED TO BE CONSIDERED BEFORE WE GO AHEAD WITH THE OLD-STYLE GAS POWER PLANTS. OF COURSE GAS POWER PLANTS HAVE BECOME MORE POPULAR BECAUSE THE PRICE OF GAS HAS DROPPED. BUT THAT MEANS THAT THE COMPANY IS NOT SO MOTIVATED TO FIND ALTERNATIVES. HAVE ANY ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS THAT ARE OPPOSING THIS SEEN ANY SORT OF CONCRETE PROPOSALS AS ALLISON WAS SAYING PERHAPS THE JUDGE HAS SEEN FROM ALTERNATIVE ENERGY PROVIDERS THAT THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE UP THIS GAP THAT THE PEAKER PLANTS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE -- SPEAKER PLANT IS ABOUT TO BE MAKING UP FOR SG&A ? YES, THERE IS AN INTERESTING PARTICIPANT IN THIS PROCEEDING WAS SHELL NORTH ENERGY AMERICA. AND HE WAS ADVOCATING THE SUPERIOR VALUE OF ENERGY STORAGE AT THIS SITE. THE SAME THING IS HAPPENING IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA EDISON HAVE A PROCEEDING GOING FORWARD AND THE CONTROVERSY THERE IS THAT UTILITY RECEIVED HUNDREDS OF MEGAWATTS OF BIDS FOR ENERGY STORAGE THAT WERE RATED MORE COST-EFFECTIVE THAN GAS-FIRED PLANTS BUT IT PUT AN ARTIFICIAL CAP ON THOSE BIDS TO PREVENT THEM FROM TAKING THE ENTIRE ALLOTMENT AWAY FROM THE GAS-FIRED PLANTS. SO WE KNOW THAT IF IT IS A FAIR AND TRANSPARENT BIDDING PROCESS, THERE ARE BETTER, CLEANER WAYS TO DO THIS. QUICKLY, THE BOAT MAY COME NEXT WEEK ON WHETHER OR NOT THE PUC WILL GIVE A THUMBS-UP OR THUMBS DOWN TO THIS PLAN? DO YOU KNOW IF ANY LAWSUITS WOULD BE ABLE TO BE FILED AFTER THAT TO KEEP THE POWERPLANT FROM BEING CONSTRUCTED ? I THINK THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PARTIES INVOLVED IN THE PROCEEDING THAT WILL GO AS FAR AS THEY PROBABLY GOOD AS POSSIBLY GOOD THING LEGALLY AS -- KEEPING THE PLANT FROM BEING BUILT. I WANT TO THANK ALISON ST. JOHN AND BILL POWERS WITH COMMIT -- PROTECT OUR COMMITTEE FOUNDATION. THANK YOU.